Jake fisher

[hawknation2015]

Because he looks even worse at tackle?

You had another thread where you lauded Miller, a guard prospect. I had watched that guy, and slow as he is, and he is damn slow, his pass pro is confident and he gives up so little ground while doing it. Physical pass pro is a rare thing, but that guy has it.

Fisher is so deep into his backpedal that he creates opportunities for the DE. I don't know the right terms for what he is doing, so I will just say it isn't very physical. Fisher puts himself back close to the pocket as much as the DE does. Watch footage of him back to back with the Texas A&M guy, Ogbuehi, and the difference is stark. I'm not saying he will be a good guard, I am saying I don't think he is a very good tackle, so he better try guard.

That's not accurate from the several games I have seen of Fisher . . . he has been very good in pass pro at both RT and LT. What you are noticing is a difference in blocking scheme between Oregon and A&M. The Ducks use a zone blocking scheme, so Fisher is using his athleticism to slide back into an area to move defenders out of the play and to form a wall of protection around the QB. Keeping the QB clean is not a weakness on the part of Fisher. In the National Championship game, Fisher allowed zero hits or QB sacks on Mariota, while facing an aggressive Buckeye defense.

Ogbuehi has great athleticism (pre-ACL surgery) and has the potential to be a great pass blocker . . . but he also struggled to make the adjustment this year to LT, giving up multiple sacks in a few games. Two sacks against Bama. Three against Mississpi State. Six sacks allowed during a three-game stretch. Neither is a finished product.

Ogbuehi has freakishly long arms and his frame is a little bigger than Fisher's. Both need to add more strength. Fisher is a little more advanced than Ogbuehi in pass pro. Ogbuehi has been stronger at the point of attack. If they had avoided injuries this past season, they could have been mid to high First Round picks. With the injuries, they are probably now low First Round, high Second Round options. Ogbuehi has a higher ceiling but the recent ACL injury is a concern.

 

[Scottemojo]

I know what zone pass block is. I still think Fisher gives away more space than he has to. A few times I saw him give away an inside pass rush because he was kicksliding AHEAD of the pass rusher. Without any real contact.

Anyway, I think he kinda crappy as a tackle. But like I said, I am no expert.

 

[hawknation2015]

I know what zone pass block is. I still think Fisher gives away more space than he has to. A few times I saw him give away an inside pass rush because he was kicksliding AHEAD of the pass rusher. Without any real contact.

Anyway, I think he kinda crappy as a tackle. But like I said, I am no expert.

If you go back and watch Nate Solder when he was at Colorado, his tape looked very similar to Fisher's. As a former TE, he was also criticized for needing to add more bulk and strength. "Could afford to add some additional bulk to his frame. Needs to watch his balance when facing edge rushers with speed and power moves. Would benefit from becoming a bit more consistent against stunts and twists. Would like to see him play with a mean streak for all four quarters." Their raw combine numbers are also very similar:

Fisher's 40: 5.01
Solder's 40: 5.05

Fisher's bench: 25
Solder's bench: 21

Fisher's vert: 32.5
Solder's vert: 32.0

Fisher's short shuttle: 4.33
Solder's short shuttle: 4.34

Fisher's 3-cone: 7.25
Solder's 3-cone: 7.44

The only significant difference is Soldier was over 6'8, which IMO is actually a detriment because it makes it more difficult to maintain consistent leverage and pad level. 6'6 is really where you want your LT to be, ideally.

 

[kearly]

I know what zone pass block is. I still think Fisher gives away more space than he has to. A few times I saw him give away an inside pass rush because he was kicksliding AHEAD of the pass rusher. Without any real contact.

Anyway, I think he kinda crappy as a tackle. But like I said, I am no expert.

My review is not as harsh, but I see what you are getting at.

It's not a perfect comparison, but purely on a surface level basis, Fisher reminds me of Bitonio last year. Both guys play hard, both guys had their struggles in protection at tackle at times when isolated without help, both were somewhat disappointing in "power run" situations, both being good 2nd level guys and both were stellar athletes with lunch pail attitudes.

I remember when I watched my games for Bitonio and gave my review of him, I said that "whatever grade you want to give him, give him that grade at guard." I also said I would have been fine with Bitonio at #32, since there was no way he'd last to #64.

I feel really similar about Fisher. I think he will probably be at least a serviceable NFL player. What I liked about Bitonio was his high floor. Like Bitonio, I think I would like to see Fisher start out of guard until he gets some NFL experience.

I don't think Fisher lasts to #63, but I wouldn't complain at all if we got him there to compete at LG.

Wouldn't be shocked if Seattle took Fisher at #32. That combine performance and Fisher's "versatility" are going to score huge points for PC/JS. And his grit will score big points with Cable. And past history suggests that tape issues scare Cable very little.

Then again, Seattle had Bitonio at their pick last year and traded it away, so...

 

[hawknation2015]

Fisher reminds me of Bitonio last year. Both guys play hard, both guys had their struggles in protection at tackle at times when isolated without help, both were somewhat disappointing in "power run" situations, both being good 2nd level guys and both were stellar athletes with lunch pail attitudes.

I remember when I watched my games for Bitonio and gave my review of him, I said that "whatever grade you want to give him, give him that grade at guard." I also said I would have been fine with Bitonio at #32, since there was no way he'd last to #64.

I feel really similar about Fisher. I think he will probably be at least a serviceable NFL player.

Your analysis of Bitonio's run blocking turned out to dead wrong if you watched him play this year. He was blocking at a Pro Bowl-worthy level . . . PFF gave him their highest run blocking grade they have ever given a rookie. That's much more than a "serviceable NFL player," much less a "finesse player who struggled with drive blocks." Not taking him at No. 32 was a mistake in hindsight, IMO.

He is also a much stronger and more compact player than Fisher, which makes sense given that he is carrying the same weight at 6'4 -- not the ideal length you want from an OT but great for the leverage needed for an interior lineman.

Fisher also tested out much better in the agility drills than Bitonio, which are more relevant to an outside pass protector than an interior one -- more than 1/10 of a second of difference in both.

Fisher's 3-cone: 4.33
Bitonio's 3-cone: 4.44

Fisher's short shuttle: 7.25
Bitonio's short shuttle: 7.37

 

[CPHawk]

Fisher is a RT, he had never played LT before and was only there due to injuries to Tyler Johnstone.

 

[Scottemojo]

Fisher reminds me of Bitonio last year. Both guys play hard, both guys had their struggles in protection at tackle at times when isolated without help, both were somewhat disappointing in "power run" situations, both being good 2nd level guys and both were stellar athletes with lunch pail attitudes.

I remember when I watched my games for Bitonio and gave my review of him, I said that "whatever grade you want to give him, give him that grade at guard." I also said I would have been fine with Bitonio at #32, since there was no way he'd last to #64.

I feel really similar about Fisher. I think he will probably be at least a serviceable NFL player.

Your analysis of Bitonio's run blocking turned out to dead wrong if you watched him play this year. He was blocking at a Pro Bowl-worthy level . . . PFF gave him their highest run blocking grade they have ever given a rookie. That's much more than a "serviceable NFL player," much less a "finesse player who struggled with drive blocks." Not taking him at No. 32 was a mistake in hindsight, IMO.

He is also a much stronger and more compact player than Fisher, which makes sense given that he is carrying the same weight at 6'4 -- not the ideal length you want from an OT but great for the leverage needed for an interior lineman.

Fisher also tested out much better in the agility drills than Bitonio, which are more relevant to an outside pass protector than an interior one -- more than 1/10 of a second of difference in both.

Fisher's 3-cone: 4.33
Bitonio's 3-cone: 4.44

Fisher's short shuttle: 7.25
Bitonio's short shuttle: 7.37

Didn't they move Bitonio to guard? Which was the point of Kip's post, right?

 

[hawknation2015]

Fisher is a RT, he had never played LT before and was only there due to injuries to Tyler Johnstone.

That's another good reason why RT would be the natural position to start him off at. It's also pretty common to start a young OT on the right side and then gradually move him to LT as a he further develops into a consistent pass protector that you can trust with your QB's blindside. For example, Tyron Smith had never played LT in college and only moved there in his 2nd season in the NFL.

 

[hawknation2015]

Fisher reminds me of Bitonio last year. Both guys play hard, both guys had their struggles in protection at tackle at times when isolated without help, both were somewhat disappointing in "power run" situations, both being good 2nd level guys and both were stellar athletes with lunch pail attitudes.

I remember when I watched my games for Bitonio and gave my review of him, I said that "whatever grade you want to give him, give him that grade at guard." I also said I would have been fine with Bitonio at #32, since there was no way he'd last to #64.

I feel really similar about Fisher. I think he will probably be at least a serviceable NFL player.

Your analysis of Bitonio's run blocking turned out to dead wrong if you watched him play this year. He was blocking at a Pro Bowl-worthy level . . . PFF gave him their highest run blocking grade they have ever given a rookie. That's much more than a "serviceable NFL player," much less a "finesse player who struggled with drive blocks." Not taking him at No. 32 was a mistake in hindsight, IMO.

He is also a much stronger and more compact player than Fisher, which makes sense given that he is carrying the same weight at 6'4 -- not the ideal length you want from an OT but great for the leverage needed for an interior lineman.

Fisher also tested out much better in the agility drills than Bitonio, which are more relevant to an outside pass protector than an interior one -- more than 1/10 of a second of difference in both.

Fisher's 3-cone: 4.33
Bitonio's 3-cone: 4.44

Fisher's short shuttle: 7.25
Bitonio's short shuttle: 7.37

Didn't they move Bitonio to guard? Which was the point of Kip's post, right?

He is 6'4 . . . everyone knew he was going to be a guard at the next level. He played guard at the Senior Bowl and said the teams that were talking to him were mostly talking to him about guard or possibly center.

 

[CPHawk]

Calling Fisher small or weak seems like an uniformed opinion to me. Let's look at our tackles, Okung was 6'5 307 at the combine (Fisher 6'6 306) and Britt did 23 on the bench compared to Fishers 25.

 

[Hawkfan77]

Calling Fisher small or weak seems like an uniformed opinion to me. Let's look at our tackles, Okung was 6'5 307 at the combine (Fisher 6'6 306) and Britt did 23 on the bench compared to Fishers 25.

You're cherry picking and combining what shouldn't be. At that size Okung put up 38 reps, and Britt is much bigger at 325. Also while he and Okung may have similar hieght and weight Okungs arms are 36 inches while Fishers are 33 3/4. Fisher has the worst physical traits of a combined Okung and Britt.

 

[CPHawk]

Calling Fisher small or weak seems like an uniformed opinion to me. Let's look at our tackles, Okung was 6'5 307 at the combine (Fisher 6'6 306) and Britt did 23 on the bench compared to Fishers 25.

You're cherry picking and combining what shouldn't be. At that size Okung put up 38 reps, and Britt is much bigger at 325. Also while he and Okung may have similar hieght and weight Okungs arms are 36 inches while Fishers are 33 3/4. Fisher has the worst physical traits of a combined Okung and Britt.

It's fine, a lot of husky fans thought Long would suck in the nfl also. It will be easy for him to put on 10lbs. As for Okung, yes his arms and strength are better, that's why he was a top 10 pick.

 

[Hawkfan77]

Calling Fisher small or weak seems like an uniformed opinion to me. Let's look at our tackles, Okung was 6'5 307 at the combine (Fisher 6'6 306) and Britt did 23 on the bench compared to Fishers 25.

You're cherry picking and combining what shouldn't be. At that size Okung put up 38 reps, and Britt is much bigger at 325. Also while he and Okung may have similar hieght and weight Okungs arms are 36 inches while Fishers are 33 3/4. Fisher has the worst physical traits of a combined Okung and Britt.

It's fine, a lot of husky fans thought Long would suck in the nfl also. It will be easy for him to put on 10lbs. As for Okung, yes his arms and strength are better, that's why he was a top 10 pick.

What an odd comment, I'm on record saying I'd him to be a hawk, don't let your complex get in the way of making an argument though...not a good look.

 

[Mtjhoyas]

Here's a pretty simple way to determine whether or not Jake Fisher *is viewed as a potential LT*: whether or not he will be available at 31.

His athleticism clearly ticks all of the boxes, so it really comes down to whether or not teams think his football skill lives up to LT quality. Pretty simple, but he will not be available at 31 if he is viewed as a viable LT candidate. So, really what it comes down to is:

Does Fisher upgrade RT enough to warrant moving Justin Britt to LG? Despite the hoopla, Britt performed well for a rookie at RT. Just look at how many recent top 12 OL have performed poorly over the last few years.

Does Fisher have the run blocking ability to play LG? Let's not forget, run blocking is and will be the primary focus for SEA OL, whether we like it or not. This is even a bigger question when talking about a 1st round pick.

Assuming Fisher is a quality RT and Britt moves to LG, who here, actually sees the OL performing better than last year? You are now talking about a rookie RT and a brand new LG, who has never played that position. IMO, you are looking at somewhat starting over on the OL, as now both sides of it will have a *new* player. While this could be a very good long term play, I think the immediate results will be ugly, which will start again with the "we need to draft OL in R1 no matter what," as if this is the remedy to OL play.

IF SEA views Fisher as a long term stalwart with the ability to play LT in a pinch or take over in the long term, then yes, I think this would be an outstanding pick. If we are simply talking about Fisher as strictly a RT, then I can't get on board with this at all, especially in R1.

 

[kearly]

Didn't they move Bitonio to guard? Which was the point of Kip's post, right?

It was also to say that players will often be better in the pros than they were in college. Nate Solder is another guy, he was a trainwreck in pass pro in college, and this was mostly consensus opinion. He goes to New England and right away he's a pretty good pass protector, though of course Tom Brady's tempo helped with that.

I didn't watch Bitonio much in Cleveland. Did you have any thoughts on him Scott?

 

[hawknation2014]

Calling Fisher small or weak seems like an uniformed opinion to me. Let's look at our tackles, Okung was 6'5 307 at the combine (Fisher 6'6 306) and Britt did 23 on the bench compared to Fishers 25.

You're cherry picking and combining what shouldn't be. At that size Okung put up 38 reps, and Britt is much bigger at 325. Also while he and Okung may have similar hieght and weight Okungs arms are 36 inches while Fishers are 33 3/4. Fisher has the worst physical traits of a combined Okung and Britt.

Britt also has shorter arms than Fisher, so it is a little surprising to me that Fisher managed more bench press reps.

 

[hawknation2014]

Assuming Fisher is a quality RT and Britt moves to LG, who here, actually sees the OL performing better than last year? You are now talking about a rookie RT and a brand new LG, who has never played that position. IMO, you are looking at somewhat starting over on the OL, as now both sides of it will have a *new* player. While this could be a very good long term play, I think the immediate results will be ugly, which will start again with the "we need to draft OL in R1 no matter what," as if this is the remedy to OL play.

(1) Britt > Carpenter at LG in both run and pass pro.

Carpenter has just been way inconsistent in all facets of the game and also too injury prone. I would kind of hate to see us devote any resources toward re-signing him.

Moving from tackle to guard is not a big adjustment for most players, especially when they have the kind of explosiveness, pad level, and power at the point of attack that Britt possesses. Look at what Bitionio did as a rookie playing LG for the first time.

(2) Rookie Fisher > rookie Britt at RT, at least in pass pro.

Fisher has once in a decade kind of athleticism for his frame. For that reason, he could be a huge upgrade in pass pro over Britt, who was beaten too often by speed rushers and ultimately allowed the 2nd most pressures in the league.

Britt performed adequately at RT, showed he has the potential to be an excellent run blocker, and I think his best position for the long haul with be at LG.

 

[Mtjhoyas]

Assuming Fisher is a quality RT and Britt moves to LG, who here, actually sees the OL performing better than last year? You are now talking about a rookie RT and a brand new LG, who has never played that position. IMO, you are looking at somewhat starting over on the OL, as now both sides of it will have a *new* player. While this could be a very good long term play, I think the immediate results will be ugly, which will start again with the "we need to draft OL in R1 no matter what," as if this is the remedy to OL play.

(1) Britt > Carpenter at LG in both run and pass pro.

Carpenter has just been way inconsistent in all facets of the game and also too injury prone. I would kind of hate to see us devote any resources toward re-signing him.

Moving from tackle to guard is not a big adjustment for most players, especially when they have the kind of explosiveness, pad level, and power at the point of attack that Britt possesses. Look at what Bitionio did as a rookie playing LG for the first time.

(2) Rookie Fisher > rookie Britt at RT, at least in pass pro.

Fisher has once in a decade kind of athleticism for his frame. For that reason, he could be a huge upgrade in pass pro over Britt, who was beaten too often by speed rushers and ultimately allowed the 2nd most pressures in the league.

Britt performed adequately at RT, showed he has the potential to be an excellent run blocker, and I think his best position for the long haul with be at LG.

A move from RT to LG is a major move. Footwork is drastically different and now you are talking about a different "side." Bitonio is an outlier in this regard. Not to mention, you are now talking about Britt's 3rd position change in 3 years. I don't doubt Britt could become a good LG, but I think you are looking at yet another adjustment period with inconsistent struggles.

RE: Fisher - I have no doubt his pass pro will be better than Britt, but how big of a drop off will he be in Run Blocking? Everything I read, he is not a powerful guy, in a functional sense. So, now we are potentially talking about downgrading our Run blocking at RT, while (at best IMO), having a stalemate at Run Blocking at LG. I don't see a net gain here. Again, just my opinion.

I will caveat this by saying, IF the Seahawks think Fisher can play LT in the near future, I'm all for the pick. It gives flexibility with cap space by having an LT on a rookie deal (assuming Okung isn't resigned). Again, I reiterate, I'm not exactly on board with Fisher as an RT only in R1, due to positional value, as well as yet another position change for Britt. At some point, we have to let these guys grow together. We will always have moving parts, but I'd like to minimize that as much as possible.

 

[Attyla the Hawk]

I really hoped Fisher would be available in R2. Looks like that won't happen based on his testing. He got probably half a round bump at minimum with his work this weekend.

 

[hawknation2015]

A move from RT to LG is a major move. Footwork is drastically different and now you are talking about a different "side." Bitonio is an outlier in this regard. Not to mention, you are now talking about Britt's 3rd position change in 3 years. I don't doubt Britt could become a good LG, but I think you are looking at yet another adjustment period with inconsistent struggles.

Britt started 36 games at LT at Missouri, so he is already very familiar with working on the left side. With a year of NFL experience already under his built, this sort of transition should be much smoother for Britt than it would be for the typical rookie. He made a relatively smooth transition to RT, and I would imagine it would be even easier to move him inside, on a side of the field where he is most comfortable, and allowing him to work in a tighter window in pass pro.

RE: Fisher - I have no doubt his pass pro will be better than Britt, but how big of a drop off will he be in Run Blocking? Everything I read, he is not a powerful guy, in a functional sense. So, now we are potentially talking about downgrading our Run blocking at RT, while (at best IMO), having a stalemate at Run Blocking at LG. I don't see a net gain here. Again, just my opinion.

That is definitely one potential downside . . . Fisher would likely be a downgrade over Britt as a run blocker. But I strongly believe Britt would be an upgrade over Carpenter as a run blocker at LG. Carpenter has been incredibly inconsistent as a run blocker, while Britt has been remarkably consistent. That level of run blocking should only improve with further development.

Also, Fisher has the frame to add more bulk and the tenacity that Cable would love to develop into an elite run blocker. He had more bench press reps than Britt and did so with longer arms. But I agree that it would take time with Fisher to put a little more weight on him and to get him to a level where he can really finish off blocks.

I will caveat this by saying, IF the Seahawks think Fisher can play LT in the near future, I'm all for the pick. It gives flexibility with cap space by having an LT on a rookie deal (assuming Okung isn't resigned). Again, I reiterate, I'm not exactly on board with Fisher as an RT only in R1, due to positional value, as well as yet another position change for Britt. At some point, we have to let these guys grow together. We will always have moving parts, but I'd like to minimize that as much as possible.

LT is almost certainly Fisher's best position. His length and agility is the foundation of what any team would want in a LT. He looked good at that spot in a reserve and starting role toward the end of the last season with Oregon. Drafting Fisher would, at a minimum, give us options with regard to re-signing Okung.