Optimal scenario for our O-Line

[peppersjap]

I will only say this about our O-Line situation for this off-season. If PC and JS have any real wish at all of having RW as our long term franchise quarterback they will make a strong push now for quality veteran OL replacements at both OC and LG at the minimum. Where we were weakest was the interior, and made RW the most vulnerable this last season.

RW seemed to have a relatively strong ability to evade the outside pressure more often than not. But when the defensive interior push was breaking thru it created serious problems for him, and most of the worst mistakes happened.

I know PC stated he wanted to deal with this, but seriously if that was his real intent he would have first fired Cable. He is the most over-rated OL coach in the game. Since that didn't happen I call Bull-#$%^%.

We shall see, but I'm not holding my breath for a real push to make our line stronger.

We have been to 2 of the last 3 Super Bowls and won one and the other 2 years won a game in the playoffs. Our offensive line has been a weakness but our Defense has been a powerhouse. They sacrificed the offensive line so they could pay the Defense, they also went out and got one of the most mobile QB's ever. Tom Cable is dealing with the players he is given and under the circumstances seems to be working miracles. I get frustrated but not sure why everyone is not ecstatic with the results we have had the last 4 years. I am frustrated with Bevell, Cable, Richard yet at the end of the season we are still playing! I have decided they are way smarter than me!

 

[Overseasfan]

I truely believe we'll improve on the O-line. Last year's sentiment was to ignore the O-line in order to be elite in more important positions but the horrible play in the first half and certain games in the second half showed us we should at least pay a bit more attention to it. We lost Unger and Carpenter and only added a few rookie projects. We made an already below average line even worse and thought it wouldn't hurt us and guess what? It did. I have no doubts we'll see some more draft capital used on nfl ready lineman and one or two FA signings this year.

 

[CurryStopstheRuns]

What about Bradley Sowell, the free agent LT from Arizona? I believe that I remember him playing fairly decent before the inexplicable move to replace him with Veldher.

 

[firebee]

What about Bradley Sowell, the free agent LT from Arizona? I believe that I remember him playing fairly decent before the inexplicable move to replace him with Veldher.

He's at the top of my list for absolutely great value on a starting LT. I watched some film on him at LT for the Cards in 2013 and WOW!!! That's all I can say. Held his own against our guys, the Niners and the Rams in 2013 when every defense in the NFC West was a wrecking ball. Add to that he's been practicing against the Cards defense for the last two years and no injury reports on him. The guy is just a monster at LT. I really don't understand why the Cards spent big on Veldheer when they had Sowell. If we can get him for around 3 million a year on 4 year deal, we'll have the free agency steal of the year.
Bradley Sowell... He's going to be a free agency steal.

 

[Jville]

What about Bradley Sowell, the free agent LT from Arizona? I believe that I remember him playing fairly decent before the inexplicable move to replace him with Veldher.

He's at the top of my list for absolutely great value on a starting LT. I watched some film on him at LT for the Cards in 2013 and WOW!!! That's all I can say. Held his own against our guys, the Niners and the Rams in 2013 when every defense in the NFC West was a wrecking ball. Add to that he's been practicing against the Cards defense for the last two years and no injury reports on him. The guy is just a monster at LT. I really don't understand why the Cards spent big on Veldheer when they had Sowell. If we can get him for around 3 million a year on 4 year deal, we'll have the free agency steal of the year.
Bradley Sowell... He's going to be a free agency steal.

My understanding is that Bradley Sowell is somewhat short armed as a long term consideration at left tackle. Sowells' arm length has been listed in the 32 3/8 to 32 1/2 inch range. That probably is a factor.

 

[DavidSeven]

The whole thing needs an overhaul, though I'd prefer we at least keep the best player we got.

Many advocate letting our line's best player (Okung) go and expect our line to somehow be better next year. I don't see how that's possible, not next year anyway.

Maybe letting Okung walk is for the best in the long-run, but you are then looking at a 2-3 year project on rebuilding that line. Let's be real, without Okung and Sweezy, you need to replace at least 4 out of 5 positions: RG, LG, C and at least one OT (assuming Gilliam is the only starting caliber player we have left). I don't see how you solve the Justin Britt problem by moving him back to Tackle. Maybe you can find a Center in the draft. Both Guards? A Right or Left Tackle? Too many question marks, too little cash, and too little evidence that we can address the weaknesses via draft or development.

I really hope Mark Glowinski ends up being good.

 

[Smellyman]

What about Bradley Sowell, the free agent LT from Arizona? I believe that I remember him playing fairly decent before the inexplicable move to replace him with Veldher.

He's at the top of my list for absolutely great value on a starting LT. I watched some film on him at LT for the Cards in 2013 and WOW!!! That's all I can say. Held his own against our guys, the Niners and the Rams in 2013 when every defense in the NFC West was a wrecking ball. Add to that he's been practicing against the Cards defense for the last two years and no injury reports on him. The guy is just a monster at LT. I really don't understand why the Cards spent big on Veldheer when they had Sowell. If we can get him for around 3 million a year on 4 year deal, we'll have the free agency steal of the year.
Bradley Sowell... He's going to be a free agency steal.

My understanding is that Bradley Sowell is somewhat short armed as a long term consideration at left tackle. Sowells' arm length has been listed in the 32 3/8 to 32 1/2 inch range. That probably is a factor.

I have no idea about this guy, but who cares if is arms are short if he has already performed on the field.

Drives me crazy talking about all these measureables. So many 'freaks' are bad football players and so many 'non-freaks' are great football players.

Eyeballs are underutilized.

 

[Willyeye]

The whole thing needs an overhaul, though I'd prefer we at least keep the best player we got.

Many advocate letting our line's best player (Okung) go and expect our line to somehow be better next year. I don't see how that's possible, not next year anyway.

Maybe letting Okung walk is for the best in the long-run, but you are then looking at a 2-3 year project on rebuilding that line. Let's be real, without Okung and Sweezy, you need to replace at least 4 out of 5 positions: RG, LG, C and at least one OT (assuming Gilliam is the only starting caliber player we have left). I don't see how you solve the Justin Britt problem by moving him back to Tackle. Maybe you can find a Center in the draft. Both Guards? A Right or Left Tackle? Too many question marks, too little cash, and too little evidence that we can address the weaknesses via draft or development.

I really hope Mark Glowinski ends up being good.

Most people are saying that RW is best at evading pass rushers that come in from the ends, so Tackles are not as important for the Hawks. Maybe Gilliam at LT and Britt at RT might not be a such a bad thing...Britt will be in his 3rd season and hopefully he finally shows some improvement. Glow at RG should be at least as good As Sweezy. I think if they could add a couple of O-Line FA's with the money that they don't use on Okung, and if they spend 3 draft picks on more traditional O-Line guys that have 3 or 4 years at one position in college, perhaps they could fill LG and Center with some of these new guys. They still have some other guys, Practice Squad and UDFA's...maybe one of them can make the jump. I have a bad feeling that Okung and/or Sweezy won't be worth the money it takes to keep them.

 

[LudwigsDrummer]

The reality is, our salary cap situation is not good! We have 31 total Free Agents this year, 17 of them UFA's. That means we only have 22 returning players from last year's roster. We will likely have $30 million in cap space. Most of the 14 RFA's and ERFA's have to be re-signed for about $10 million, or we will have ZERO depth. We also need to save about 7 of that $30 million for our new draft class. That leaves us about $13 million in cap space to spend on UFA's including our own. We have what was considered to be 7 starters leaving in FA...Irvin, Okung, Mebane, Sweezy, Rubin, Lane and Kearse. If we were to sign just Okung and Sweezy for around $13 million, that would mean we lose all of our other 15 Free Agents, and have zero space to sign any FA's from other teams. The reality is, we have to let at least Irvin, Okung, Sweezy and Mebane walk (truth is, if the FO was planning on keeping any of these guys they'd have already been re-signed or extended). This would also double as our FA's lost that would qualify us for 4 Compensatory Draft Picks for 2017. The choices remaining would be for Rubin, Lane and Kearse...we could probably sign all three, but that again would leave us with no space for FA's from other teams, especially much-needed O-Linemen.

The problem with Okung is that he's been an injury magnet...even when he plays, he's playing through some kind of pain or injury. Is it really worth paying him like $8 million APY? Okung just hasn't been all that great the last couple of years...in 2015 Okung was even graded below average by PFF. I don't see a huge dropoff in Wilson's game when Bailey is replacing Okung either. Let Sweezy walk also...he's just not very good. Get 2 or 3 inexpensive veterans who have been cut or who haven't been signed by June 1...this way they won't count against our comp picks for 2017. Add 3 or 4 draftees for the O-Line. I'm kind of leaning toward a FA older veteran/younger backup Tackle to replace Okung; Glow to replace Sweezy; use the #26 pick for a starting O-Lineman if the right one is still available, or if not, trading down from # 26 to get an extra 2nd round pick and 3rd round pick. A trade down for #26 would give us 5 picks in the 2nd and 3rd rounds...a total of 10 picks. That would make it easy to pick 3 O-Linemen spread throughout the draft and still have 7 picks left for 2 DT, OLB, RB, CB, DE, WR.

Re-sign Lewis and Bailey, probably even Jeanpierre. Add at least 5 or 6 new O-Linemen through the draft and Free Agency. Start TC with Gilliam/FA/draftee, high pick draftee/Bailey/Britt, Lewis/FA/draftee, Glowinski/draftee, draftee/FA/Britt. They could still add Nowak, Sokoli, Jeanpierre, Poole and Pericak to the mix, giving them some 15 O-Line guys to compete in TC. Make a decision before preseason, and get an O-Line playing somewhat consistently by Week 1. If we use this strategy, I believe that we'd have a cohesive/better O-Line unit much earlier in the season than we did last year.

We need to make sure we're getting good value on good fits, preferably great value with great fits. I'm liking Schwartz, but I'm worried his value could get pushed up in free agency. Probably teams with a lot more money than us also drooling over getting Schwartz on the roster. If Jacksonville or Oakland goes after him, forget about it.

The one guy who I think is really flying under the radar is Bradley Sowell. Started the last 12 games at LT his rookie season in 2013. Cardinals had a 10-6 record and barely missed the playoffs because the NFC West was a defensive nightmare for the entire league. Curiosity getting the best of this cat, I decided to check out some 2013 videos on the Cards and I was very impressed with Sowell. After about the minute mark in the video start looking for Big #79. He handled his own and I don't really understand why the Cards spent on Veldheer when they had this guy on the roster.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pUgDNA2L-A

I think this could be the steal of free agency for us this year if Sowell performs like I think he would in our offense. Nobody ever gets by him without him getting his hands on them. They might be able to beat him around the backside edge if he doesn't get the drop in his kick or get beat on a double move, but he always gets his hands on the defender and makes them work to get by him. His hands are always hitting and jolting a defender if they get in his reach. That's the type of OT we need protecting Wilson's backside.

Exactly, as I have my eyes on Sowell for over a month now. Cards are tight against the cap too and I expect them to resign their starting RT and signing Sowell might be too much $ for a solid backup.

 

[WilsonMVP]

The whole thing needs an overhaul, though I'd prefer we at least keep the best player we got.

Many advocate letting our line's best player (Okung) go and expect our line to somehow be better next year. I don't see how that's possible, not next year anyway.

Maybe letting Okung walk is for the best in the long-run, but you are then looking at a 2-3 year project on rebuilding that line. Let's be real, without Okung and Sweezy, you need to replace at least 4 out of 5 positions: RG, LG, C and at least one OT (assuming Gilliam is the only starting caliber player we have left). I don't see how you solve the Justin Britt problem by moving him back to Tackle. Maybe you can find a Center in the draft. Both Guards? A Right or Left Tackle? Too many question marks, too little cash, and too little evidence that we can address the weaknesses via draft or development.

I really hope Mark Glowinski ends up being good.

But how good is Okung if hes not playing or hes playing injured....and making like 8+ mil in the process...I think ill pass on that....

 

[DavidSeven]

Most people are saying that RW is best at evading pass rushers that come in from the ends, so Tackles are not as important.

I remember when McQuistan and Michael Bowie started a bunch of games for us at Tackle.

Russell Wilson (secretly) busted his shoulder halfway through the season and lost a bunch of fumbles.

Interior protection is important, especially for a QB of Wilson's height, but the best pass rushers in the NFL still come off the edge. You can't evade a blindside hit. Take enough of those, and he is simply destined to get hurt.

 

[Willyeye]

Most people are saying that RW is best at evading pass rushers that come in from the ends, so Tackles are not as important.

I remember when McQuistan and Michael Bowie started a bunch of games for us at Tackle.

Russell Wilson (secretly) busted his shoulder halfway through the season and lost a bunch of fumbles.

Interior protection is important, especially for a QB of Wilson's height, but the best pass rushers in the NFL still come off the edge. You can't evade a blindside hit. Take enough of those, and he is simply destined to get hurt.

That's all true to an extent, but I guess the thinking is that in past years, Wilson was never really a QB who took command of his pocket. Whereas in the second half of last season, he suddenly became a "true" pocket passer, and he was VERY successful at it. The only problem with that was when it was time for him to step up into the pocket, much of the time the pocket was collapsing, and he was trapped...which was exactly what happened in the Rams and Panthers games late in the year.

The other problem with your theory is that no one really knows for sure how or when RW's shoulder got busted up. I seem to recall reading one time that it happened on a late hit when Russell was running out of bounds. In 2013, a pass rusher could have almost as easily got by Sweezy or Carpenter from the interior, as both of them were NOT GOOD at pass protection. It's not necessarily the case that Bowie and McQuistan were any worse on the outside, or that they were responsible for RW's injury.

 

[Basis4day]

Most people are saying that RW is best at evading pass rushers that come in from the ends, so Tackles are not as important.

I remember when McQuistan and Michael Bowie started a bunch of games for us at Tackle.

Russell Wilson (secretly) busted his shoulder halfway through the season and lost a bunch of fumbles.

Interior protection is important, especially for a QB of Wilson's height, but the best pass rushers in the NFL still come off the edge. You can't evade a blindside hit. Take enough of those, and he is simply destined to get hurt.

That's all true to an extent, but I guess the thinking is that in past years, Wilson was never really a QB who took command of his pocket. Whereas in the second half of last season, he suddenly became a "true" pocket passer, and he was VERY successful at it. The only problem with that was when it was time for him to step up into the pocket, much of the time the pocket was collapsing, and he was trapped...which was exactly what happened in the Rams and Panthers games late in the year.

The other problem with your theory is that no one really knows for sure how or when RW's shoulder got busted up. I seem to recall reading one time that it happened on a late hit when Russell was running out of bounds. In 2013, a pass rusher could have almost as easily got by Sweezy or Carpenter from the interior, as both of them were NOT GOOD at pass protection. It's not necessarily the case that Bowie and McQuistan were any worse on the outside, or that they were responsible for RW's injury.

I believe the beat writers implied Wilson hurt his shoulder at SF in 2013 in a hit from Ahmad Brooks.
My vague memory only.

 

[DavidSeven]

It's not necessarily the case that Bowie and McQuistan were any worse on the outside

Oh, but they were worse. Those guys were a dumpster fire on the outside and Russell took an unsustainable number of hits off the edge that year. The only reason we won and Russ didn't end up on a gurney is because Okung and Giacomini made it back for the stretch run. Russ was sacked on 9.92% of dropbacks that year -- dead last in the NFL by a full percentage point. That was on McQuistan and Bowie.

I believe the beat writers implied Wilson hurt his shoulder at SF in 2013 in a hit from Ahmad Brooks.

It was earlier than that because Russ started wearing padding and long sleeves in Atlanta (dome). That was before the game at SF. I believe Carroll said it happened mid-season, which was when McQuistan and Bowie were still starting.

 

[Jville]

What about Bradley Sowell, the free agent LT from Arizona? I believe that I remember him playing fairly decent before the inexplicable move to replace him with Veldher.

He's at the top of my list for absolutely great value on a starting LT. I watched some film on him at LT for the Cards in 2013 and WOW!!! That's all I can say. Held his own against our guys, the Niners and the Rams in 2013 when every defense in the NFC West was a wrecking ball. Add to that he's been practicing against the Cards defense for the last two years and no injury reports on him. The guy is just a monster at LT. I really don't understand why the Cards spent big on Veldheer when they had Sowell. If we can get him for around 3 million a year on 4 year deal, we'll have the free agency steal of the year.
Bradley Sowell... He's going to be a free agency steal.

My understanding is that Bradley Sowell is somewhat short armed as a long term consideration at left tackle. Sowells' arm length has been listed in the 32 3/8 to 32 1/2 inch range. That probably is a factor.

I have no idea about this guy, but who cares if is arms are short if he has already performed on the field.

Drives me crazy talking about all these measureables. So many 'freaks' are bad football players and so many 'non-freaks' are great football players.

Eyeballs are underutilized.

Fair enough. My comment was only an exercise in plausible speculation as to why the Cardinals might look past Sowell,

 

[firebee]

My understanding is that Bradley Sowell is somewhat short armed as a long term consideration at left tackle. Sowells' arm length has been listed in the 32 3/8 to 32 1/2 inch range. That probably is a factor.

I have no idea about this guy, but who cares if is arms are short if he has already performed on the field.

Drives me crazy talking about all these measureables. So many 'freaks' are bad football players and so many 'non-freaks' are great football players.

Eyeballs are underutilized.

Fair enough. My comment was only an exercise in plausible speculation as to why the Cardinals might look past Sowell,

I see how measurables help in the draft when you're trying to compare guys that play a wide range of competition at the collegiate level, but film should be your primary factor on free agents. Measurables kind of go out the window when you're looking at guys that already play in the NFL. Really... I think measurables shouldn't factor quite as much as they do in the draft. Maybe a guy moves up a little or down a little, but these guys that blow up at the combine because of their measurables with crappy film and crappy production just blow my mind.... Heyward-Bey comes to mind. I knew Al Davis was going to go after him because Davis loved the 40 times. You could almost count on him drafting the fastest guy in the draft, regardless of how incompetent they were as a player. I remember telling my Raider friend before the draft... You guys should take Crabtree, but you're going to take Heyward-Bey. As for Free Agents... Free agents have already shown you they can play or they've shown you they can't. Sowell has shown that he can play in the NFL and legitimately start at LT for a team.

 

[Willyeye]

It's not necessarily the case that Bowie and McQuistan were any worse on the outside

Oh, but they were worse. Those guys were a dumpster fire on the outside and Russell took an unsustainable number of hits off the edge that year. The only reason we won and Russ didn't end up on a gurney is because Okung and Giacomini made it back for the stretch run. Russ was sacked on 9.92% of dropbacks that year -- dead last in the NFL by a full percentage point. That was on McQuistan and Bowie.

I believe the beat writers implied Wilson hurt his shoulder at SF in 2013 in a hit from Ahmad Brooks.

It was earlier than that because Russ started wearing padding and long sleeves in Atlanta (dome). That was before the game at SF. I believe Carroll said it happened mid-season, which was when McQuistan and Bowie were still starting.

Don't get me wrong...I wasn't implying that McQuistan and Bowie were killing it at Tackle. They were horrible. At the same time, Carpenter and Sweezy weren't much better in the interior. Wilson had ZERO pocket all year. Okung was still playing pretty well back then, but even Breno was horrible at pass pro. My original point was more so that RW seems less reliant on Tackles than any other QB in the NFL. Also, that QB's get injured all the time, and not all of those injuries happen because of blind side hits. In thinking about it, I vaguely remember people talking about a dirty hit on RW early in the game in Week 8 against the Rams (and that totally makes sense), and that that was probably the game where RW hurt his shoulder.

Either way, the Rams and the Panthers cost the Seahawks 4 losses last year, and in all 4 of those games, RW's pockets collapsed up front, from the interior frequently. I believe that if they could shore up the interior of the O-Line with Glowinski and FA's or draftees, the Oline would probably be okay with Gilliam and an inexpensive vet at Tackle positions. I'm thinking it would be best this year to add 2 FA's and 3 draft picks to the O-Line...the draft picks need to be non-project, traditional O-Linemen that have 3 or 4 years experience at their positions in college. If they add 5 players to the mix of guys already on the team, they should have a strong O-Line competition in preseason, and plenty of depth for the regular season..

 

[Jville]

An optimal scenario for the offensive line may lie in this years roster/cap flexibility:

For those who value flexibility, it certainly is something of an optimal year. There are not any pending cap casualties. Nothing meaningful in the way of upcoming dead cap costs. The two unrestricted free agent starters have an undetermined market value. So free agency is a process they and the team have to go thru.

For those who like 2 to 3 year conversion projects, it certainly is something of an optimal year. It is year two for Kristjan Sokoli plus 3 additional conversion projects in the pipeline. All of whom are already under contract for 2016. Given that Cable announced they were starting over with the offensive line, having that first year under the belt bolds well for the future. We can look forward to training camp to see who transitions to the next level and how that conversion approach is working.

I think the emergence of Garry Gilliam invites a lot of interest and inspiration for optimism. He succeeded in making the conversion and surviving his first full time year at tackle. He should settle in at an optimal playing weight and start the season with better strength and technique. Gilliam realized considerable improvement over the course of 2016. His best ball appears to be in his future. Gilliam also was among the 3 linemen that contributed 90%+ snaps. That puts him in the same durability and dependability class as the now annual stalwarts of JR Sweezy and Justin Britt. That is an important development.

Mark Glowinski made the most of his single opportunity to start. He played well. That certainly validated his selection in last years draft. With his first year under his belt, it seems reasonable to expect Mark to be very competitive in 2016.

The staff has considerable roster flexibility this year. We should see an evolution in the make up of the offensive line and it should start to make more sense in 2016. It is something to look forward to and maybe dare to get excited about. And in any case, "times they are a changing" with both their blocking and running game.

 

[cheese22]

Optimal? Sign Sowell at LT, draft LG to compete with Britt, draft C early to get the best, start Glow at RG and Gilliam at RT. Would be a cheap way to fill holes and hopefully some continuity for the future. I want a line that will be around for a few years which means they've been successful.

I'd love to draft any combination of Kelly, Martin, Glasgow and Tretola, Whitehair, Kirkland or Garnett. If not immediate starters, I think they all would be eventual starters that should have some longevity.

Sokoli, Poole, Bailey and Lewis could push more snaps in camp.

 

[Overseasfan]

FA should be the place where we become stronger along the Oline. I'd prefer a RT FA over a LT though. They tend to be cheaper (a lot) and Gilliam is more natural at LT than RT anyway. A FA LG is an absolute must or keep Sweezy and then move Glow into the LG starting role. This would create a Gilliam - FA - Lewis - Glow - FA line or a Gilliam - Glow - Lewis - Sweezy - FA line. Then draft Haeg in the 3rd/4th as quality tackle depth and allow him to sit and evolve into a potential starter for next year. A mid-late G or C for competetion wouldn't hurt either.

Keep in mind we're going to have to draft a starter caliber OLB to replace Irvin, have to invest in DT (at least one new starter), get a WR if we don't keep Kearse and draft an elite cb if we can't afford either Shead or Lane. It might be possible to do something in FA for DT but the OLB, WR and CB markets are horrible at the moment. We simply don't have the luxury to spend 2 of our first 4 picks on Oline.