Pass rush concerns now that Allen has signed with Bears

[Hawkfan77]

Avril moves to Clem's spot. McDaniel moves to Red's spot. Irvin moves to Avril's spot.

Hill/Scruggs/Williams and draft picks to fight over mcdaniel's spot.

Other than Avril taking over the LEO, I don't see any of that.

Irvin will stay at OLB and why move McDaniel off of a spot where we know he can play?

 

[jblaze]

That's a good point. There's been talk about moving Irvin back to DE to get Smith on the field as well. DE's usually take a little while to develop and get stronger, maybe Irvin is ready. He's still pretty small though and a liability in the run game but maybe on pass downs.

That's not true. Everyone keeps saying stuff like this. His official listing as a rookie was 5 pounds short of Clemmons, and yet no one complained about Clem's size. After 2 years of development Irvin should be fine. He should be in the Von Miller type role this year. SAM Lber on base situations and rush end on nickel situations.

Frankly, I don't understand the concern. On pass rushing situations you had Clem & Avril @ ends, now you'll have Avril and Irvin (which he played as a rookie) not a big deal. You've got Bennett on the inside in those situations. YOu still have McDaniel and Mebane on running downs. Hill flashes ability in his limited work last as did Scruggs as a rookie. I think you'll see those 2 pick up the slack. We will obviously draft a player or 2 to help in this situation as well.

I'm glad we didn't sign Allen, gives us more ability to lock up Thomas and Sherman.

I'm not talking about weight, I'm talking about how he plays. He plays small at times and gets pushed around by tackles. He has no speed to power move and his bullrush is weak. His one move is speed around the edge but tackles know that so it makes him less effective. He needs to improve his lower body strength and technique.

Also we do not know if he will go back to the DE although it seems more likely now. Also I noticed someone tweeting something to him not long about about sacks and Irvin tweeted back that he misses sacks and that there will be more to come. I would assume he's alluding to him being more of a strong side LB on rush downs but rotating in a RE on obvious pass downs. I think he has the athletic ability to do both but he relies on his athletic ability too much at times. He needs to become more of a technician and develop some moves to vary his game and help his leverage.

Regardless, we'll be just fine. Last year we had an embarrassment of riches. This year the rotation will shorten a bit but we're lucky we have a guy like Irvin to move back to DE with the LB depth (Smith) to not lose a lot in that transition. Should be fun to watch, I've always liked Irvin although he was taken way too early in the draft.

 

[DavidSeven]

Avril moves to Clem's spot. McDaniel moves to Red's spot. Irvin moves to Avril's spot.

Hill/Scruggs/Williams and draft picks to fight over mcdaniel's spot.

Other than Avril taking over the LEO, I don't see any of that.

Irvin will stay at OLB and why move McDaniel off of a spot where we know he can play?

Carroll said today at the owners' meetings that McDaniel would be taking over for Red.

 

[Hawkfan77]

Avril moves to Clem's spot. McDaniel moves to Red's spot. Irvin moves to Avril's spot.

Hill/Scruggs/Williams and draft picks to fight over mcdaniel's spot.

Other than Avril taking over the LEO, I don't see any of that.

Irvin will stay at OLB and why move McDaniel off of a spot where we know he can play?

Carroll said today at the owners' meetings that McDaniel would be taking over for Red.

We will see if that sticks

 

[jblaze]

Seahawks.com began listing Bruce Irvin as a DE as of last week:

http://www.seahawks.com/team/roster.html

That's not true. The last change on his status was from July 24th, 2013 per seahawks.com.

 

[jlwaters1]

That's a good point. There's been talk about moving Irvin back to DE to get Smith on the field as well. DE's usually take a little while to develop and get stronger, maybe Irvin is ready. He's still pretty small though and a liability in the run game but maybe on pass downs.

That's not true. Everyone keeps saying stuff like this. His official listing as a rookie was 5 pounds short of Clemmons, and yet no one complained about Clem's size. After 2 years of development Irvin should be fine. He should be in the Von Miller type role this year. SAM Lber on base situations and rush end on nickel situations.

Frankly, I don't understand the concern. On pass rushing situations you had Clem & Avril @ ends, now you'll have Avril and Irvin (which he played as a rookie) not a big deal. You've got Bennett on the inside in those situations. YOu still have McDaniel and Mebane on running downs. Hill flashes ability in his limited work last as did Scruggs as a rookie. I think you'll see those 2 pick up the slack. We will obviously draft a player or 2 to help in this situation as well.

I'm glad we didn't sign Allen, gives us more ability to lock up Thomas and Sherman.

I'm not talking about weight, I'm talking about how he plays. He plays small at times and gets pushed around by tackles. He has no speed to power move and his bullrush is weak. His one move is speed around the edge but tackles know that so it makes him less effective. He needs to improve his lower body strength and technique.

Also we do not know if he will go back to the DE although it seems more likely now. Also I noticed someone tweeting something to him not long about about sacks and Irvin tweeted back that he misses sacks and that there will be more to come. I would assume he's alluding to him being more of a strong side LB on rush downs but rotating in a RE on obvious pass downs. I think he has the athletic ability to do both but he relies on his athletic ability too much at times. He needs to become more of a technician and develop some moves to vary his game and help his leverage.

Regardless, we'll be just fine. Last year we had an embarrassment of riches. This year the rotation will shorten a bit but we're lucky we have a guy like Irvin to move back to DE with the LB depth (Smith) to not lose a lot in that transition. Should be fun to watch, I've always liked Irvin although he was taken way too early in the draft.

I agree. he will get more time as a rusher this year I expect bit things from him this year.

 

[Lady Talon]

Clemons' value wasn't only in the pass rush, it was veteran savvy in sealing his edge against QB scrambles and runs. I'm not sure Avril can fill those shoes, run defense been a knock against him for quite some time. Perhaps he's improved in this area. It's not the passing downs that concern me as much as being gashed with the run all day. I'm not yet convinced Avril is a 3 down DE in Clemons' mold. If we get weak against the run, problems will follow in the pass rush.

O'Brien Schofield was manning Clemons' spot in week 1 and 2 (with 1 sack). You won't get great sack numbers out of him, but he can collapse a pocket well enough and set the edge against run plays for us as long as Avril is rotated into his spot for passing downs. If Schofield has moved on, I don't think there's a shortage of cheap run defense DE's PC could identify and bring in and throw in a rotation.

For what it's worth, I wasn't convinced Jared Allen was a good answer in Clemons' spot either. Seemed a bit too concerned with all time sack numbers to imagine him giving his mistake-free all against the run. A QB like Kaep might well abuse a sack diva attitude.

I know we have all the pieces for a fierce pass rush, provided everyone stays healthy, it's the little things Clemons' did that may need to be replaced.

 

[chawx]

I might be in the minority here, but I'm really glad JS/PC stuck to their guns and kept the offer where it benefits the team first and foremost. If Allen wants to be like Tate and go get money with crappy teams in the NFC that will be our perennial 1st/2nd round warm-ups in the playoffs, then so be it.

We don't need him. Bennett will open gaps for the young guns to step in and make names for themselves. I'm not worried at all, in fact, Allen seemed like a John Randle type acquisition to me—He would probably do okay, but with not much left in the tank to really help us out over the span of his contract, plus he would only take snaps away from young talent that I want to see grow and succeed with us (ie. Mayowa, Scruggs, Hill, etc.)

 

[jblaze]

I agree, I think Allen is more of a one trick pony and doesn't fit the profile of our line which is diversity and flexibility. All Allen wants to do is rush the passer and he gets out of position a lot because of that.

I also love the fact that we stuck to our price even if it means he didn't accept the offer. It sets a great precedent that even if you're a future HOF'er, we have our number and are disciplined. It bodes well for future negotiations and our future salary cap management.

 

[Missing_Clink]

I'm concerned that we cut Clemons when perhaps it wasn't necessary. Clemons was a beast in the super bowl. It looked like he had finally found his pre-injury form. I would have been totally fine with bringing back a pass rushing core of Avril, Bennett and Clemons. Having them all allowed Avril to rush from the strong side, where he really looked awesome last season with Clemons on the weakside and Bennett inside. It was deadly.

Now Clemons is gone and the only replacements are the potential in-house guys, and right now I do not believe that Irvin or Mayowa or anyone else they have can give the Seahawks anything even remotely close to what a healthy Clemons gives them.

If they had to cut Clemons to extend some superstars, so be it. But if we lose Thomas or Sherman now, I am going to be pissed because I believe that will mean we cut Clemons without a good reason.

The truth is that it took Clemons half of last year to get up to speed. Also he's lost a step and is a declining player. His cap number was way too large for his production so it was time to move on. These contracts are built with these cuts in place usually with one year remaining and once the guaranteed money is paid. This was always going to happen, same with Red, same with Mebane and Lynch next year.

We redshirted our DL draft from last year, someone will step up. Also I think they may go early DL now in the draft. They really need to get some value (cheap 4 year rookie contract) out of that position group.

Also with Avril likely leaving next year, we really need to establish some young guys and draft a couple with that end in mind. Bennett will likely be gone the year after that so we need to keep cycling guys through on cyclical contracts .

I know he was overpaid. The issue for me is what they are doing with the money saved by cutting him. Right now, its just unused cap and team is presently worse off without him in my opinion. Now, if they take that money eventually use it to extend core guys, fine. If not, I'd just overpay him one more year and keep a guy and take the gamble that he will show improvement and get back to his old form another year out from the ACL injury.

 

[Scottemojo]

The pass rush has taken a half step backwards, but with Irvin going back to DE we are gonna be OK.

And, it's a long way til TC. who knows what becomes available in the meantime.

 

[SouthSoundHawk]

There is plenty of talent left on the defensive line and we all know Pete is going to add a few more bodies in the draft.

It shouldn't be too hard trying to replace (around) 10 sacks with rookies and dudes that are hungry waiting for the opportunity to shine.

 

[jblaze]

I'm concerned that we cut Clemons when perhaps it wasn't necessary. Clemons was a beast in the super bowl. It looked like he had finally found his pre-injury form. I would have been totally fine with bringing back a pass rushing core of Avril, Bennett and Clemons. Having them all allowed Avril to rush from the strong side, where he really looked awesome last season with Clemons on the weakside and Bennett inside. It was deadly.

Now Clemons is gone and the only replacements are the potential in-house guys, and right now I do not believe that Irvin or Mayowa or anyone else they have can give the Seahawks anything even remotely close to what a healthy Clemons gives them.

If they had to cut Clemons to extend some superstars, so be it. But if we lose Thomas or Sherman now, I am going to be pissed because I believe that will mean we cut Clemons without a good reason.

The truth is that it took Clemons half of last year to get up to speed. Also he's lost a step and is a declining player. His cap number was way too large for his production so it was time to move on. These contracts are built with these cuts in place usually with one year remaining and once the guaranteed money is paid. This was always going to happen, same with Red, same with Mebane and Lynch next year.

We redshirted our DL draft from last year, someone will step up. Also I think they may go early DL now in the draft. They really need to get some value (cheap 4 year rookie contract) out of that position group.

Also with Avril likely leaving next year, we really need to establish some young guys and draft a couple with that end in mind. Bennett will likely be gone the year after that so we need to keep cycling guys through on cyclical contracts .

I know he was overpaid. The issue for me is what they are doing with the money saved by cutting him. Right now, its just unused cap and team is presently worse off without him in my opinion. Now, if they take that money eventually use it to extend core guys, fine. If not, I'd just overpay him one more year and keep a guy and take the gamble that he will show improvement and get back to his old form another year out from the ACL injury.

I think it's apparent what they're doing when they didn't overpay for Allen. They're looking to extend both their all-pro's and do it this offseason. They may also stand pat and try to rollover the rest til next year. They love to spend in FA for DL and that ship has sailed and with Avril and Mebane leaving next year, my guess is they'll make another FA splash on the DL next year but are likely looking to rollover a good amount of this years cap to next year.

Thomas extension won't be much more than his salary he was set to make this year since it was on the old CBA. Sherman on the other hand will be quite a bit more. Next year, however, both will be large cap hits as well RW's year 1 cap hit which will be 8-10m on a year 1 cap hit. So they've got a lot to budget for and I think they're ok at this point with what they have. They're looking to stay good and consistent for a long time, not just take advantage of any perceived super bowl window like Denver for example. Doing that takes patience, discipline and planning.

 

[DavidSeven]

Seahawks.com began listing Bruce Irvin as a DE as of last week:

http://www.seahawks.com/team/roster.html

That's not true. The last change on his status was from July 24th, 2013 per seahawks.com.

Yeah, FieldGulls inaccurately stated it happened last week.

However, Irvin has said today he wants his "hand back in the ground." I think he's moving back to DE (at least on a situational basis).

 

[nanomoz]

I'm of the mind that our pass rush was so effective late in the season because very few players up front had to play a ton of snaps. We just seemed to have more in the tank in the post season. Depth was a big part of the defense's effectiveness.

I'm sure several dudes will be given chances to earn 25%+ of snaps. I think we'll be ok at 5-tech, which helps keep Bennett fresh. But I would like another utility pass rusher or two. Schofield comes to mind. Who knows, maybe Mayowa steps up, or Irvin plays all over the place.

I won't gauge my opinion until after the draft. We've lost 3 or 4 contributors up front (Red, Clem, McDonald, and maybe Schofield) but there's about 3-4 guys that have flashed potential that could fill a void: Scruggs, Mayowa, and Hill. And there's an outside chance Williams can recover.

 

[BAJAHAWK]

The best thing about this is that they are going to get extensions done for the most important piece of our Defense the LOB. Expect new deals for Thomas, Sherman and possibly Maxwell and that to me is far better than signing Allen or anyone else!

 

[MVP53]

ESPN lists the best available FA DEs as Anthony Spencer (B), Robert Ayers (C), Jason Hunter (C), Edgar Jones (C), Brett Keisel (C-) & Shaun Phillips (C-).

I will claim complete ignorance here, as I am not very familiar with any of those players. Do any of them fit with Seattle?

 

[kearly]

Yeah I'm hoping Mayowa or Scruggs shows up. Although Scruggs looks more like a run stuffing 5T than a speed pass rusher. Would be nice to draft one, perhaps that's the answer!

Draft a DE @ 32!

Who? Dee Ford? Please no. It would be really nice if Seattle gave Schofield a call though. Shaun Phillips was the 2013 equivalent of Raheem Brock. I wouldn't be shocked if Seattle inquires into him after the draft is over. Anthony Spencer's market has been ice cold, I guess two knee surgeries last year will do that. I think Spencer would fit us very nicely though as a rotational LEO or hybrid 3-4 OLB.

I do think we are one small piece away, but I don't think it is in the draft and I don't think it's Irvin until he proves otherwise.

 

[kf3339]

Glad the Allen situation is finished. I didn't really care if we got him, or not.

Now on to more important business filling out the roster in the draft and extending Thomas and possibly Sherman. Those are much more important to the long term success of this team.

 

[RolandDeschain]

What concerns? We have Bennett and Avril, we're fine.

Totally. We only need two pass rushers.

They are key pieces and trump the hell out of Clemons being our only pass rusher that could do anything for years.