RB Coach Smith on Lynch, Turbin and Christine Michael

[kearly]

Reading one's blockers requires more than simply running to the area as drawn up; it requires reading who is being blocked and who is not being blocked, taking advantage of the opportunities that are actually present. IMO, neither Turbin nor Michael do that as well as the average NFL back.

But again, I am saying this is exactly what Sherman Smith is telling Turbin not to do anymore.

And I'm not sure it's fair to say that they don't do it as well as "an average NFL back." They've both put up better-than-average numbers behind an o-line that's often been problematic in both talent and calls. What would their numbers be if they ran behind Dallas's line or had Peyton Manning orchestrating the line changes?

Sums up my feelings perfectly. I was pretty down on Turbin in 2013, but he showed real growth last year, IMO.

 

[kearly]

On any other team, Turbin is essentially Trent Richardson. Michael is Andre Ellington with fumbling issues.

My personal comps would be Julius Jones for Robert Turbin and Ahman Green for Christine Michael.

Jones was not a vision guy, he just hit the hole as it was drawn up every time. He largely depended on the quality of his run blocking to succeed. He was a very good blocker, receiver, and didn't fumble often (1 per 100 touches). He had a lot of 4 yard runs but not a lot of explosive plays. Obviously he was mediocre at best as a starter, but he was the kind of back that would fit in nicely in a #2 RB role. Maurice Morris would be a solid comp as well, though I think Morris was better than Jones or Turbin.

Michael is basically Ahman Green all over again, and there were several people who made the comparison before he was drafted (Matt Waldman called Michael "Ahman Green incarnate"). So talented (Green and Michael had very similar combine numbers and college tape), but both were knuckleheads. Eventually the Seahawks and Holmgren got tired of Green's fumbles and dealt him to the Packers, where he became their all time rushing leader by the time he retired.

Michael has talent, but like Green, he needs the right situation. I'm starting to think that Seattle's chaotic style of rushing attack and their emphasis on ball security means that Michael will have to find that ideal situation somewhere else.

 

[hawknation2015]

On any other team, Turbin is essentially Trent Richardson. Michael is Andre Ellington with fumbling issues.

My personal comps would be Julius Jones for Robert Turbin and Ahman Green for Christine Michael.

Jones was not a vision guy, he just hit the hole as it was drawn up every time. He largely depended on the quality of his run blocking to succeed. He was a very good blocker, receiver, and didn't fumble often (1 per 100 touches). He had a lot of 4 yard runs but not a lot of explosive plays. Obviously he was mediocre at best as a starter, but he was the kind of back that would fit in nicely in a #2 RB role. Maurice Morris would be a solid comp as well, though I think Morris was better than Jones or Turbin.

Michael is basically Ahman Green all over again, and there were several people who made the comparison before he was drafted (Matt Waldman called Michael "Ahman Green incarnate"). So talented (Green and Michael had very similar combine numbers and college tape), but both were knuckleheads. Eventually the Seahawks and Holmgren got tired of Green's fumbles and dealt him to the Packers, where he became their all time rushing leader by the time he retired.

Michael has talent, but like Green, he needs the right situation. I'm starting to think that Seattle's chaotic style of rushing attack and their emphasis on ball security means that Michael will have to find that ideal situation somewhere else.

Michael is not Ahman Green . . . Come on. He is not 10% of Ahman Green without the ability to break a tackle.

[youtube]UnBYN_1rA8c[/youtube]

 

[Ozzy]

I disagree. I think Michael is every bit the talent Green was. Green went on to make the most of his situation and Michael has yet to do that but I think his ceiling is every bit as high as Greens was.

 

[Tical21]

I think Michael ends up being pretty darn close to Ahman Green as well. I still see star in that talent.

RB is kind of a catch-22 situation. Sure, you want him to be creative and instinctive on Sundays and find ways to make plays work. But you don't want that at all from Monday-Saturday. You don't want your RB to get creative in practice. It lessens the responsibility of the linemen to do their jobs properly. This is how the conversation goes during the week, and anybody here that has played RB or OL for any amount of time basically at any level has heard this exact conversation from a coach hundreds of times at practice, even if the RB improvises a huge gain:

"Hey, Turbin, why didn't you hit the right hole?"

"Because there wasn't a hole there."

"Then, next time, put your helmet in Sweezy's back and cleat marks up his arse. I bet you he'll damn well make a hole for you after that. Run the play again. On the ball!!"

Very few things on this earth hurt as bad as getting a facemask in the small of your back at full speed while you're engaged with a DT.

A guy like Christine Michael has heard this thousands of times in his life. He remembers this when the thinks about improvising. So certainly, you want him to improvise on Sunday and make a play however he can, but as a guy who is on the bubble and presumably is trying to do whatever the coaches ask him to do to make a team, he can't risk getting his arse chewed out for not running a play as it is drawn up.

I'm an O-line guy. If a play doesn't work right, it's the O-line's job to make it work right, not the RB's job to improvise around it. Nothing made me chew a guy out more than having my line do a nice job of making the right seam for a back only to have him improvise because he thought he saw something.

Again, I'm not saying you don't want a guy with great instincts. The great ones run 90% on feel. There is a great clip of our offensive staff designing a subtle adjustment to a play because of the way the defense is playing us. The hole is going to be moved a few feet from where it normally is, and Pete goes to Marshawn, who is sitting on the bench and says, and I'm paraphrasing:

"hey, on blah blah play, youre going to want to hit it right here instead of....." Marshawn cuts Pete off mid-sentence and rolls his eyes and says "I'll just read it."

Then Pete goes "yeah, but I'm just saying it's going to be--

"I'll just read it."

"Okay, yeah, just read it."


There was a back in the early 90's for Pittsburgh named Barry Foster. He came out of nowhere and caught lightning in a bottle and was instantly a pro-bowler caliber back, and he like led the league in rushing or something. Then, the next year, I heard him say in an interview "my first year, I didn't know what was going on, I just played off instincts. Now I'm learning that you have to prepare and watch tape and know what to expect." He soon fell off a cliff and was never heard from again.

The great ones run on feel. This is one of the reasons I don't mind Michael not being incredibly coachable. But for the rest, they're better served to hit the dang hole as it was drawn up and trust their line to take them there, because dancing and indecision is going to be a far worse crime than running hard into a pile and falling forward.

 

[brimsalabim]

I say this to our guys, it's not our job to win it, just don't lose it.

I get what he is saying but if this is truly what our staff is preaching to our offense then no wonder we sputter.

 

[sc85sis]

I think Michael ends up being pretty darn close to Ahman Green as well. I still see star in that talent.

RB is kind of a catch-22 situation. Sure, you want him to be creative and instinctive on Sundays and find ways to make plays work. But you don't want that at all from Monday-Saturday. You don't want your RB to get creative in practice. It lessens the responsibility of the linemen to do their jobs properly. This is how the conversation goes during the week, and anybody here that has played RB or OL for any amount of time basically at any level has heard this exact conversation from a coach hundreds of times at practice, even if the RB improvises a huge gain:

"Hey, Turbin, why didn't you hit the right hole?"

"Because there wasn't a hole there."

"Then, next time, put your helmet in Sweezy's back and cleat marks up his arse. I bet you he'll damn well make a hole for you after that. Run the play again. On the ball!!"

Very few things on this earth hurt as bad as getting a facemask in the small of your back at full speed while you're engaged with a DT.

A guy like Christine Michael has heard this thousands of times in his life. He remembers this when the thinks about improvising. So certainly, you want him to improvise on Sunday and make a play however he can, but as a guy who is on the bubble and presumably is trying to do whatever the coaches ask him to do to make a team, he can't risk getting his arse chewed out for not running a play as it is drawn up.

I'm an O-line guy. If a play doesn't work right, it's the O-line's job to make it work right, not the RB's job to improvise around it. Nothing made me chew a guy out more than having my line do a nice job of making the right seam for a back only to have him improvise because he thought he saw something.

Again, I'm not saying you don't want a guy with great instincts. The great ones run 90% on feel. There is a great clip of our offensive staff designing a subtle adjustment to a play because of the way the defense is playing us. The hole is going to be moved a few feet from where it normally is, and Pete goes to Marshawn, who is sitting on the bench and says "hey, on blah blah play, youre going to want to hit it right here instead of....." Marshawn cuts Pete off mid-sentence and rolls his eyes and says "I'll just feel it."

Then Pete goes "yeah, but I'm just saying it's going to be--

"I'll just feel it."

"Okay, yeah, just feel it."


There was a back in the early 90's for Pittsburgh named Barry Foster. He came out of nowhere and caught lightning in a bottle and was instantly a pro-bowler caliber back, and he like led the league in rushing or something. Then, the next year, I heard him say in an interview "my first year, I didn't know what was going on, I just played off instincts. Now I'm learning that you have to prepare and watch tape and know what to expect." He soon fell off a cliff and was never heard from again.

The great ones run on feel. This is one of the reasons I don't mind Michael not being incredibly coachable. But for the rest, they're better served to hit the dang hole as it was drawn up and trust their line to take them there, because dancing and indecision is going to be a far worse crime than running hard into a pile and falling forward.

I believe Marshawn said, "I'll just read it," but I don't think that changes your point too much.

 

[hawknation2015]

I think Michael ends up being pretty darn close to Ahman Green as well.

:34853_doh:

He's just a guy with good athleticism until he shows he can read his blockers, hold on to the football, pass block, or break a tackle.

 

[Tical21]

I think Michael ends up being pretty darn close to Ahman Green as well.

:34853_doh:

He's just a guy with good athleticism until he shows he can read his blockers, hold on to the football, pass block, or break a tackle.

So was Ahman Green, and he took like 8 years to figure out how to not fumble.

 

[seedhawk]

Holmgren gave up on green too early, and, didn't it take like 3 years before he really gave alexander his chance?

 

[hawknation2015]

I think Michael ends up being pretty darn close to Ahman Green as well.

:34853_doh:

He's just a guy with good athleticism until he shows he can read his blockers, hold on to the football, pass block, or break a tackle.

So was Ahman Green, and he took like 8 years to figure out how to not fumble.

That's where the similarities end . . . tackle breaking ability, vision, and power are not in the same stratosphere.

 

[Ozzy]

I have no clue how you can watch his college tape and even small sample size in the pros and think that.

 

[Tical21]

I have no clue how you can watch his college tape and even small sample size in the pros and think that.

Exactly. Remember, his rookie year, he led the NFL in preseason rushing. It isn't like he hasn't flashed some potential. He's also average about 5 YPC over his short NFL career, which would put him, I dunno, at about the top of the league?

 

[DavidSeven]

Again, I'm not saying you don't want a guy with great instincts. The great ones run 90% on feel. There is a great clip of our offensive staff designing a subtle adjustment to a play because of the way the defense is playing us. The hole is going to be moved a few feet from where it normally is, and Pete goes to Marshawn, who is sitting on the bench and says "hey, on blah blah play, youre going to want to hit it right here instead of....." Marshawn cuts Pete off mid-sentence and rolls his eyes and says "I'll just read it."

Reminds me of something funny Smith said in the interview. Said he laughs when Marshawn tries to tell other RBs how he would have run the play. Marshawn's trying to be helpful, but him giving pointers to normal runners is like Lebron James giving tips to other basketball players. You won't get better by watching film of Marshawn or Lebron because you can't do what they do.

 

[hawknation2015]

I have no clue how you can watch his college tape and even small sample size in the pros and think that.

Exactly. Remember, his rookie year, he led the NFL in preseason rushing. It isn't like he hasn't flashed some potential. He's also average about 5 YPC over his short NFL career, which would put him, I dunno, at about the top of the league?

No, he was 4th in rushing yards in the 2013 preseason and T-58th in yards per carry (which is about as meaningless as it gets):
http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats? ... 447263-n=1

His average -- with as few carries as he has earned -- would not be anywhere close to the top of the league.

 

[Tical21]

I have no clue how you can watch his college tape and even small sample size in the pros and think that.

Exactly. Remember, his rookie year, he led the NFL in preseason rushing. It isn't like he hasn't flashed some potential. He's also average about 5 YPC over his short NFL career, which would put him, I dunno, at about the top of the league?

No, he was 4th in rushing yards in the 2013 preseason and T-58th in yards per carry (which is about as meaningless as it gets):
http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats? ... 447263-n=1

His average -- with as few carries as he has earned -- would not be anywhere close to the top of the league.

Oh, okay, maybe. At some point in that last weekend he was leading the league in preseason rushing. Sure. Guess I was wrong.

Okay, fair points. So what is it that led you to believe he isn't a very talented back?

 

[Tical21]

I have no clue how you can watch his college tape and even small sample size in the pros and think that.

Exactly. Remember, his rookie year, he led the NFL in preseason rushing. It isn't like he hasn't flashed some potential. He's also average about 5 YPC over his short NFL career, which would put him, I dunno, at about the top of the league?

No, he was 4th in rushing yards in the 2013 preseason and T-58th in yards per carry (which is about as meaningless as it gets):
http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats? ... 447263-n=1

His average -- with as few carries as he has earned -- would not be anywhere close to the top of the league.

Of all RB's with 25 or more carries in the NFL last year, he was 8th in YPC. Not sure what you define as "close to the top of the league."

 

[sekiuHAWK]

I have a different bone to pick. I don't see how Lynch is not a better player than Eddie George; and on the same note, what is the difference between talented and better? Yeah, I am biased, but there is none like Lynch in my opinion. He should be in the HOF one of these days for his effort alone. One of these days I will show my children three athletes on field presence to show them the type of effort they should give. Lynch, Rodman, and Tyson. He is in a special group of people, and sadly is overlooked for other reasons...

 

[kearly]

Regarding Tical's points. I played OL and my experience was pretty much the exact same. My coaches at high school and in Division II were so old school that they preached the 'practice mentality' as Tical outlined even on game days. I'm sure there are many head coaches in the NFL that would do the same on Sundays. As Tical says, the onus is on the OL to get it done, and the responsibility of the RB is to not waste the victories won by the OL.

Basically, a coach puts so much work and brain power into drawing up plays. It's like he's a watch maker. Every little gear has to turn exactly right. If one part of the watch doesn't move exactly the way it's supposed to, the watch won't run. It's the same way with plays on offense. They aren't designed with margin for error in mind. Everything must be perfect. Perfection is demanded.

But as Tical also points out, sometimes you have a special player who defies the norms. Lynch is that guy, and I honestly wonder if his being too different is what made him available in a trade in the first place. Wilson is that guy too. One of the great things about Pete is that he is so adaptable, he will find a way to make unconventional talent shine and to get out of the way of a great player doing his thing, even if it flies in the face of the way he'd coach every other player at that position.

 

[mrt144]

That's gotta burn Turbo a bit.

I don't know, I think Turbo knows who he is at this point.