Serious- Has the shine wore off on Russ?

[Rat]

...not worth it, even though what I said was correct.

 

[Popeyejones]

Not to hump Popeye's leg but I think he has had Russell nailed better than anyone with his high-variability analysis for quite some time.

Thanks, dude. :2thumbs:

If it's any consolation, a lot of 9ers fan HATE this argument, and are like "nah, he just sucks, man."

He doesn't even remotely suck. I first started watching the Hawks more regularly during Wilson's first year b/c he reminded me of my favorite player: Steve Young. He's still, I think, kinda like a more high variance Steve Young (albeit Wilson is IMO a better pure passer than Young, and maybe not as good on some of the other stuff as Young).

 

[AROS]

Good stuff as usual Popeyejones. :2thumbs:

 

[Boycie]

I don't know if we are even having this conversation if our defense was still elite. They gave up 500 yards yesterday so let that sink in. If we give up 300ish we win this game, and we are all just talking about it being the first real game of the season and that Russ will get it back on track because these discussion have happened in previous years too.

This loss just isn't on Russ, but he didn't look great. With our previous D, we win this game because no way Denver puts up that many points against us.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

I don't know if we are even having this conversation if our defense was still elite. They gave up 500 yards yesterday so let that sink in. If we give up 300ish we win this game, and we are all just talking about it being the first real game of the season and that Russ will get it back on track because these discussion have happened in previous years too.

This loss just isn't on Russ, but he didn't look great. With our previous D, we win this game because no way Denver puts up that many points against us.

If anyone thought our D was still elite, they need to delete their .Net account, cause they obviously haven't been paying attention.

This D is a complete rebuild, and what you saw yesterday is going to be par for the course for this year. Maybe even worse if more injuries hammer at our already thin depth.

Case freakin' Keenum hung 500 yards on us, what do you think offenses like the Rams, Chargers, Packers, Vikings and Chiefs are going to do?

That's why I keep saying this season's on Russell and the offense. There is no room for that unit to take entire first halves to get going like they usually do, or Russell to crap the bed in the 4th. There just isn't.

 

[TwistedHusky]

We gave up our Elite D so we could pay Russ.

You get one or the other and we made a choice.

The moment we traded Unger, we made that choice.

To be honest, if we kept Bennett? We probably win this game. He applied a lot of pressure that freed up other players.

That said, we could help Russ out by just letting him do the very thing he does best - throw on the move. Most defenses are predicated on moving the QB. The pressure that a defense generates does not always turn into a sack. But Wilson is probably the best I have seen throw on the move EVER.

For some unknown reason we decided that keeping Wilson in the pocket was going to be the plan. Unfortunately, that was Denver's plan too.

Wilson is best at throwing on the run, which is also one of the most difficult things for a defense to defend. We didn't even use that strength to our advantage.

 

[mrt144]

We gave up our Elite D so we could pay Russ.

You get one or the other and we made a choice.

The moment we traded Unger, we made that choice.

To be honest, if we kept Bennett? We probably win this game. He applied a lot of pressure that freed up other players.

That said, we could help Russ out by just letting him do the very thing he does best - throw on the move. Most defenses are predicated on moving the QB. The pressure that a defense generates does not always turn into a sack. But Wilson is probably the best I have seen throw on the move EVER.

For some unknown reason we decided that keeping Wilson in the pocket was going to be the plan. Unfortunately, that was Denver's plan too.

Wilson is best at throwing on the run, which is also one of the most difficult things for a defense to defend. We didn't even use that strength to our advantage.

We're talking 8 million APY of 22 Mil vs. say 14 Mil. Or are you going whole hog and saying they should have rolled the dice again at QB, gone rookie and had an additional 20 Mil to pay...more offensive free agent busts?

We did pay the defense and they became extremely top heavy over time. I don't see how paying RW breaks up the Defense when almost everyone worth a 2nd contract on D got their 2nd contract and played at least a year with it. I suppse Bruce Irvin got away...

If anything we chose our best players at the time over potential wiggle room to shore up the weakest parts of the team - and then drafted not so well for the looming cliff that injuries made closer than it appeared.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Rat, it's called Sarcasm. Remember sarcasm?
Don't like it, feel free to scroll on. It's a message board, we mess with each other all the time.

 

[Boycie]

I don't know if we are even having this conversation if our defense was still elite. They gave up 500 yards yesterday so let that sink in. If we give up 300ish we win this game, and we are all just talking about it being the first real game of the season and that Russ will get it back on track because these discussion have happened in previous years too.

This loss just isn't on Russ, but he didn't look great. With our previous D, we win this game because no way Denver puts up that many points against us.

If anyone thought our D was still elite, they need to delete their .Net account, cause they obviously haven't been paying attention.

This D is a complete rebuild, and what you saw yesterday is going to be par for the course for this year. Maybe even worse if more injuries hammer at our already thin depth.

Case freakin' Keenum hung 500 yards on us, what do you think offenses like the Rams, Chargers, Packers, Vikings and Chiefs are going to do?

That's why I keep saying this season's on Russell and the offense. There is no room for that unit to take entire first halves to get going like they usually do, or Russell to crap the bed in the 4th. There just isn't.

Maybe he can't though?

 

[scutterhawk]

Let's start 33 threads about how Russ is somehow done, old and slow. He had an off game, the entire TEAM lost this game.

It’s awesome when your QB plays poorly and still throws for 300 yards and 3 TDs and keeps your team within 3 points from winning

Don't forget the Hits, Pressures & Sacks by some really damned good Bronco defenders.
Considering how off the Offensive line was, and how poorly the did with the Run Game, Russ did make a few really good pass completions, and also, Will Dissley played pretty damned good when he was in there, I mean like Jimmy Graham who? 8)
It was an AWAY GAME that we lost by THREE POINTS, I just think that there were some positives to take away from the loss.

 

[Reaneypark]

He does need to abandon the backwards spin from his game. That isn’t fooling anyone any more.

 

[Scorpion05]

I have two, honest questions. And I’m not asking you to change your mind:

1. Some of the throws Russell has missed, after watching film would you say some of it is due to not trusting his protection, and not being able to step into the pocket?

2. The sacks he took, after watching film would you say those were quick developing routes where Wilson had a quick out and didn’t take it? Or were those long developing routes where Wilson had to hold onto the ball

Your points are fair, but only if it matches with what’s on film

Two totally valid questions. :2thumbs: (EDIT: and sorry for the wall of text this turned into!)

1) Yeah, really every QB is going to miss more throws when they're facing interior pressure. Wilson is no different in that regard. I also think standing in the pocket and getting smashed in the mouth is WAY overrated.

That said, I *think* the question you're asking (and truly do correct me if I'm wrong) is if Wilson has been mentally scarred from playing behind a bad offensive line for so long?

If that is the question (and again, correct me if I'm wrong), I don't think so. He's had the same areas for improvement with regards to using the pocket and manipulating the pocket since first entering the league. I've honestly watched every (non-preseason) NFL game he has ever played, and from what I've seen, he hasn't gotten any worse in these areas. Instead, he has stayed the same. If he has gotten scarred from bad o-line play this would have gotten worse, and I just don't think it has.

I don't want to be too critical because I think he's a VERY good QB, but his play in relation to the pocket has, in my opinion, always been probably the weakest trait of his game. He sometimes steps into the pocket, but compared to most QBs he doesn't do so nearly as much, and prefers to hang out above it (this is what Cam Newton does), or to try to escape from it horizontally (or in the worst case scenarios, as he has always done throughout his career and did twice yesterday, going backwards back across it and then sometimes taking 15-20 yard sacks that nobody else ever really ends up taking).

I also understand why he doesn't step into the pocket too much. It has nothing to with his height (see the similarly height challenged Brees who is a goddamn surgeon from the pocket), but rather has to do with his struggles with feeling pressure (more on this below). When he is in the pocket he doesn't have the feel to manipulate it with strategic steps to move rushers out of his throwing lanes (see Brees and Brady -- two of the best at it). Instead, unless he can immediately step in and throw he's like a chicken with his head cut off, and ping pongs around until he runs into somebody or can find his old friend (the horizontal escape) and make more room for himself to find someone who is open.

As for feeling pressure, it's the other area in which he is weaker than the other very good QBs, IMO. He's obviously the best in the league at making rushers miss, but from his perch above the pocket he still seems to mostly be relying on an internal clock rather than feeling pressure. What this means is that regardless of if he's facing pressure or not, he hits zero on his internal clock and starts to bail (again, horizontally or backwards), which puts his offensive lineman in a TON of conflict, and leads to unnecessary sacks (such as the three he blamed himself for yesterday).

VERY SINCERELY, he can still maybe improve in these areas (example: Ben Roethlisberger did in his 30s), but these things aren't the fault of a bad o-line: he struggles with them no more today than he did in his first and second year in the league. (I think we maybe just see them *a bit* more because over his career his OCs have taken the kids gloves off of him a little bit more -- e.g. less of those WR pop screens that Hawks fans hated so much, which get used as plays off for young QBs).


2) This is really impossible to say without being at the game and being able to see the whole field, or without watching the All-22. I've never been to a Seahawks game and haven't watched any All-22 for a couple years now. We definitely don't see those zero-time routes (pop wr screens) as much (which makes sense -- those are QB training wheel plays) or some of the three step and throw routes (for QBs not in shotgun) like slants as much as we used to (although to be fair, for as accurate as he is he always seemed to be bizarrely a bit inaccurate on those three step and throw slant routes, which is why I think they were taken out).

Basically, from the TV angle we're almost always left to guess about the route combos as based on where the ball goes (we almost never see the backside route combinations), so we're kind of left to guess as based on where the QB is looking and what he's doing. I don't really see Wilson looking coverage off as much as one might like, or seeing him go through his progressions as much as some QBs do (he usually bails instead).

From that we're left to guess that he's either breaking from the play design and not hitting his read windows sometimes (e.g. he doesn't take the designed pass, and holds onto the ball instead), or the Hawks are calling plays that take a stupidly long time to develop. I doubt it's the latter.



JUST TO REITERATE THOUGH: these are areas that he has, in my view, always struggled with, and seems to continue to struggle with. If we were talking about touch, deep ball accuracy and placement, escapability, ability to brush off poor throws and so on, he's right up there with Rodgers as the best in the league, IMO.

Totally appreciate your point of view!!

1) I would say you're close in terms of my perspective on this. I don't know if my conclusion leans towards being "scarred." I think that after he begins to feel pressure, he feels the need to play hero ball and make magic happen. It either ends up being disaster or, occasional magic. I think that Russell sometimes gets to a point where he's so paranoid about being blind sided, giving up a play, etc. that he sometimes bails from the pocket the moment there is some interior pressure. He doesn't manipulate the pocket because he can't and quite frankly, I'm not so sure he's able to at this point. In any case the honest truth is, I'm not so sure what to make of Russell at this point, because I believe that statistically he's dealing with abnormal pressure in the pocket. I live in New York City. I've spent an abnormal amount of time watching Tom Brady(because they're obsessed with him there, even if they hate him), and my opinion is that he has faltered even worse under pressure in his career. Some of those Rex Ryan defenses(at its peak), as well as many of those Broncos defenses, would often offset Josh McDaniel's quick passing offenses by only rushing 3-4 and playing tight press coverage on the Wes Welkers and Edelman's of the world. And Brady would panic. Drew Brees was also SEVERELY turnover prone when his O-line/Running game struggled, and when his defense was abysmal. The only elite QB I have seen consistently handle pressure well is...Aaron Rodgers.


2) As to your second point, in terms of him feeling pressure, I can't dispute your opinion because I'm honestly not sure. To me the jury is still out. I have always seen Russell as a Quarterback with excellent instincts. Some players have even credited him as having eyes in the back of his head. I guess what makes me most curious is, does he indeed struggle to feel pressure? I believe Schotty wants to keep Russell in the pocket, which I totally agree with. Because an effective Russell Wilson is one that can manage his chaos, or magic(depending on your perspective). Russell staying in the pocket more often than not will create more consistency with the Offensive Line, who will always struggle to protect Wilson if they're not sure where he will be. In my opinion many Seahawks fans have two opinions that conflict. The first is that Ifedi is terrible, and is getting beat easily. The second is that Russell is bailing from the pocket too quickly. Both IMO can't be true. To me, we will only be able to judge Wilson's pocket presence when pressure in under 3 seconds is the exception, not the rule. I'm watching a young QB who is expecting pressure at all times, instead of reacting to it when it comes. Kind of like when Ifedi jumps offsides whenever he faces a top pass rusher.


I subscribed to NFL Gamepass all of last season, but I haven't this season yet. So I haven't gotten to pause, rewind, and analyze this yet. I'm sure I'll see much of what's been discussed here..bailing from the pocket, the inability to feel pressure adequately. The question left to be answered will ultimately come down to whether some of that can be contextualized. I believe structure and identity is important to any successful business, team, or corporation. And right now on offense, we're definitely lacking the structure to evaluate this as well as we could. Anyway, thanks for the discussion Popeye :irishdrinkers:

 

[DJrmb]

He does need to abandon the backwards spin from his game. That isn’t fooling anyone any more.

I agree. Not only is that not fooling anyone at this point anymore but it looks like Solari has the guys pass blocking in a way that he really gets himself into more trouble by doing that. That's not a dig on Solari either, that's how they should be blocking. Make the DE go way deep and around and give the QB lanes to move up or to the side. It's going to take Russ some time to break that habit though...

 

[Scorpion05]

He does need to abandon the backwards spin from his game. That isn’t fooling anyone any more.

I actually agree with this. Or at minimum he needs to do it less. If he wants to uphold his reputation as the "Houdini" of the NFL he's going to have to add more moves to his arsenal so he's not so predictable. Because literally every defense is game planning for that spin move. He especially struggles with that move moving to his left. When he moves to his right he can plausibly pull a fake spin move and continue going to his right

 

[Spin Doctor]

People are frustrated with Russ because of his lack of progress as a passer in my opinion, or at least I am. He has shown glimpses of improvement and then regression. I see people always default to "ITS THE O LINES FAULT" which, yes they have not always been the best. That being said, you cannot hold onto the ball for 3+ seconds and expect anything but pressure to come out of it in most cases. Wilson doesn't get rid of the ball quick enough. The one season he did we had 2015. How quickly the quarterback gets rid of the ball is very important.

Consider this, the year Brady was out due to injury in 2008, Matt Cassell stepped in. He had the same offensive coordinator, same line, same receivers. He was sacked 47 times that year. Patriot fans were complaining about their line regressing after the 2007 season. Brady was sacked behind that very same line 21 times the year prior. Cassell was the more mobile QB, so what gives? It all has to do with recognizing what the defense is trying to do to you, exploiting it, and getting the ball out of your hand quickly. In 2009, the year after Cassell, the Pats O-line only gave up 16 sacks.

Our line is never going to look good the with Russell's style, no matter how many picks we invest in it.

 

[ZagHawk]

I've been off the Russell can do no wrong bandwagon for a few years now. I think he's great, but as that SI article showed a few days ago. The complaint is he has never been held accountable. Even among fans, there are so many that think he can do no wrong, there's always some excuse like Oh the defense gave up X yards (what about the 3 Interceptions, that any team SHOULD win after that many turn overs). Or the O-Line can't hold (what about the fact that he holds the ball longer than any other QB with his similar pay). The critics are not saying Russell is over the hill, done or sucks. They are just saying he is at fault as well for losses and sadly he has been bailed out in years past by the team, but now the team isn't good enough to bail him out. So it's showing what he is and is not capable of.

 

[mrt144]

People are frustrated with Russ because of his lack of progress as a passer in my opinion, or at least I am. He has shown glimpses of improvement and then regression. I see people always default to "ITS THE O LINES FAULT" which, yes they have not always been the best. That being said, you cannot hold onto the ball for 3+ seconds and expect anything but pressure to come out of it in most cases. Wilson doesn't get rid of the ball quick enough. The one season he did we had 2015. How quickly the quarterback gets rid of the ball is very important.

Consider this, the year Brady was out due to injury in 2008, Matt Cassell stepped in. He had the same offensive coordinator, same line, same receivers. He was sacked 47 times that year. Patriot fans were complaining about their line regressing after the 2007 season. Brady was sacked behind that very same line 21 times the year prior. Cassell was the more mobile QB, so what gives? It all has to do with recognizing what the defense is trying to do to you, exploiting it, and getting the ball out of your hand quickly. In 2009, the year after Cassell, the Pats O-line only gave up 16 sacks.

Our line is never going to look good the with Russell's style, no matter how many picks we invest in it.

Maybe there should be a couple games this season where the entire playbook is short passes, over and over and over again, until RW gets it right. Straightjacket him into those exact throws and see if it takes at all.

 

[ZagHawk]

Yet other QB's marry stars and get worshipped.
See Lord Brady and walk on water Rodgers.

Lord Brady did help bring their team 5 SB Rings. And Walk on Water Rodgers no matter how bad the team is around him is capable of winning ANY game...assuming he's not leaving the game on a cart. RW although has shown brilliance, how many times have we seen the defense keep him in the game when he throws INTs and goes flat 3 and out in a series.

 

[ZagHawk]

People are frustrated with Russ because of his lack of progress as a passer in my opinion, or at least I am. He has shown glimpses of improvement and then regression. I see people always default to "ITS THE O LINES FAULT" which, yes they have not always been the best. That being said, you cannot hold onto the ball for 3+ seconds and expect anything but pressure to come out of it in most cases. Wilson doesn't get rid of the ball quick enough. The one season he did we had 2015. How quickly the quarterback gets rid of the ball is very important.

Consider this, the year Brady was out due to injury in 2008, Matt Cassell stepped in. He had the same offensive coordinator, same line, same receivers. He was sacked 47 times that year. Patriot fans were complaining about their line regressing after the 2007 season. Brady was sacked behind that very same line 21 times the year prior. Cassell was the more mobile QB, so what gives? It all has to do with recognizing what the defense is trying to do to you, exploiting it, and getting the ball out of your hand quickly. In 2009, the year after Cassell, the Pats O-line only gave up 16 sacks.

Our line is never going to look good the with Russell's style, no matter how many picks we invest in it.

Maybe there should be a couple games this season where the entire playbook is short passes, over and over and over again, until RW gets it right. Straightjacket him into those exact throws and see if it takes at all.

That's what I've been hoping for ever since the O-Line was an issue. With the new coaching changes, i think it's glaringly obvious it's a Pete and/or RW mentality. Full routes or nothing. I do wonder if the height issue is real. However Brees is only an inch taller. Is the inch all the difference in the world? or does Brees just trust his receivers and throws blind and RW will not?

 

[TwistedHusky]

We did it when Wilson marched us to the wildcard game.

Baldwin was in the slot and Wilson was putting up gaudy numbers then. He was getting the ball out quickly. He wasn't scrambling much at all.

For some reason, we abandoned it in the playoffs, (Carolina promptly killed us because of that), but for almost a full season he was throwing the ball quickly, using his slot receiver, throwing plenty of TDs, and not relying on his ability to scramble.

I don't know I believe it is a thing he is limited or cannot do. He threw slants just fine then.

Admittedly, that was the best I have ever seen Wilson and it only got us to the WC game (which we won because of a lucky missed kick) but he showed he can do all of the quick passes. I don't know why Carroll decided to try to turn him into the 2nd coming of Rex Grossman but that was later.