To move Cross, or not to move Cross?

[RiverDog]

Not the guy you asked, but rodger saffold comes to mind directly LT to start career to all pro guard.

I'm sure that's not the only example as I'd assume at least a few were drafted as a tackle and slid inside when they couldn't play it as a starter early in their career.. . But saffold is a fairly recent example especially when you consider most all pro guards end up getting the honor numerous times.

Well, we've tried it and weren't very successful. Germaine Ifedi and Justin Britt come to mind.

 

[bigcc]

You can rationalize Riq's sloppy tackling all you want. All I can say is that Pete benched him for it, so obviously it's a huge problem, and I'm dubious that a simple change in his coaches is going to fix it.

BTW, Riq's tackling issues went beyond just stopping the run. I wish I could find a stat for YAC allowed by a DB to a WR, but Riq allowed a whole helluva lot of YAC to the receivers he was covering.

Him coming into the NFL with one year of starting experience on defense in his life seems like pretty reasonable rationalization.

I think (going heavily into assumptions here) that Pete sat him because of lack of effort on tackling, moreso than making the play.... If that makes sense.

He was avoiding contact repeatedly, he probably got too cocky after his rookie year so Pete tried to ground him, and he was better afterwards from what I recall.

But yeah tackling/effort is definitely his concern, think we're just looking at it differently to arrive at the same point regarding his play, I just think his positives heavily outweigh the negatives given the lack of experience

 

[bigcc]

Well, we've tried it and weren't very successful. Germaine Ifedi and Justin Britt come to mind.

Oh no it's a terrible idea lol, last thing I want to see is cross move

 

[RiverDog]

Him coming into the NFL with one year of starting experience on defense in his life seems like pretty reasonable rationalization.

I think (going heavily into assumptions here) that Pete sat him because of lack of effort on tackling, moreso than making the play.... If that makes sense.

He was avoiding contact repeatedly, he probably got too cocky after his rookie year so Pete tried to ground him, and he was better afterwards from what I recall.

But yeah tackling/effort is definitely his concern, think we're just looking at it differently to arrive at the same point regarding his play, I just think his positives heavily outweigh the negatives given the lack of experience

For what it's worth, Riq's run defense grade, which at the CB position is almost exclusively tackling, PFF graded him out at 37.3, which is horrible, 119th out of 127 ranked CB's.

To be fair, some of that poor grade can be attributed to our front 7's inability to stop the run as failing to do so tends to expose the corners and safeties. Adams and Diggs also suffered in this regard.

If Riq improved over the last part of the season, it didn't show up in our overall run defense. In our last five games, we gave up 173, 178, 162, 202, and 206 yards rushing for an average of 184 yards per game, well above our season average of 138 yards per game. That 138 ypg average was 2nd worst in the league.

 

[DarkVictory23]

For what it's worth, Riq's run defense grade, which at the CB position is almost exclusively tackling, PFF graded him out at 37.3, which is horrible, 119th out of 127 ranked CB's.

To be fair, some of that poor grade can be attributed to our front 7's inability to stop the run as failing to do so tends to expose the corners and safeties. Adams and Diggs also suffered in this regard.

If Riq improved over the last part of the season, it didn't show up in our overall run defense. In our last five games, we gave up 173, 178, 162, 202, and 206 yards rushing for an average of 184 yards per game, well above our season average of 138 yards per game. That 138 ypg average was 2nd worst in the league.

Our entire defense was constantly getting exposed because of a hole somewhere else on the field. We were definitively worse than the sum or our parts.

This is why I think our defense could actually be much better with a different D coordinator. He never found ways to protect our guys. A hole would develop and instead of being like 'we need to scheme out of this' we'd just leave it for someone else on the defense to shoulder part of the responsibility.

 

[RiverDog]

Our entire defense was constantly getting exposed because of a hole somewhere else on the field. We were definitively worse than the sum or our parts.

This is why I think our defense could actually be much better with a different D coordinator. He never found ways to protect our guys. A hole would develop and instead of being like 'we need to scheme out of this' we'd just leave it for someone else on the defense to shoulder part of the responsibility.

I agree. Diggs is a good example. From 2020-22, he was elected to 3 consecutive Pro Bowls, then in one season, he's suddenly dog meat, one of the worst safeties in the league? IMO he's one player who got exposed due to the ineptness of our front 7.

Hopefully, this is one area where Macdonald and Co. can make a difference.

 

[ElvisInBlue]

I agree. Diggs is a good example. From 2020-22, he was elected to 3 consecutive Pro Bowls, then in one season, he's suddenly dog meat, one of the worst safeties in the league? IMO he's one player who got exposed due to the ineptness of our front 7.

Hopefully, this is one area where Macdonald and Co. can make a difference.

Eyeball says Diggs also suffered from IDGAF syndrome. How many times did we see him spectating as the defense was gashed.

 

[toffee]

These are my opinions, from a guy that never played ball

1. Cross played LT in Mississippi State, and we drafted him to be our franchise LT. He has played for two years, so far he is mediocre. Will his plays improve in year 3? or may be year 4? Shall we wait another year?
2. Can Cross excel at LG? Who knows.
3. What we do know is Peter Skoronski, he had a as good, if not better college career playing LT as Cross. Peter was draft #10 by the Titans, and immediately converted to LG. He is voted NFL all rookie team.
4. I think Cross might find LG more challenging, he didn't lack quickness, but lack bulk and strength, inside might not be his calling.

As 12s, we pray and hope Cross will improve and breakout and become the second coming of Duane Brown, these two had similar build and profile. But what if he can't excel as LT in NFL?

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www.si.com

 

[bigcc]

These are my opinions, from a guy that never played ball

1. Cross played LT in Mississippi State, and we drafted him to be our franchise LT. He has played for two years, so far he is mediocre. Will his plays improve in year 3? or may be year 4? Shall we wait another year?
2. Can Cross excel at LG? Who knows.
3. What we do know is Peter Skoronski, he had a as good, if not better college career playing LT as Cross. Peter was draft #10 by the Titans, and immediately converted to LG. He is voted NFL all rookie team.
4. I think Cross might find LG more challenging, he didn't lack quickness, but lack bulk and strength, inside might not be his calling.

As 12s, we pray and hope Cross will improve and breakout and become the second coming of Duane Brown, these two had similar build and profile. But what if he can't excel as LT in NFL?

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www.si.com

Lol you linked pff as a source who praised skoronski.

Guess who was ranked higher both years in the nfl by their metric?

And just from a statistical one, Charles Cross only gave up one more sack despite being on an island outside vs the nfls best edge rushers, skoronski gave up one less sack vs defensive tackles with blockers on both sides of him.

Terrible example if you're trying to make a case for sliding cross inside.

EDIT: btw, that extra sack cross gave up is despite the fact that the seahawks threw the ball 81 more times. Titans were 30th in pass attempts

 

[toffee]

Lol you linked pff as a source who praised skoronski.

Guess who was ranked higher both years in the nfl by their metric?

And just from a statistical one, Charles Cross only gave up one more sack despite being on an island outside vs the nfls best edge rushers, skoronski gave up one less sack vs defensive tackles with blockers on both sides of him.

Terrible example if you're trying to make a case for sliding cross inside.

EDIT: btw, that extra sack cross gave up is despite the fact that the seahawks threw the ball 81 more times. Titans were 30th in pass attempts

My point is not to overlook the possibility, you don't need to agree. In fact, agreeing to disagree is quite ok.

 

[bigcc]

My point is not to overlook the possibility, you don't need to agree. In fact, agreeing to disagree is quite ok.

If cross doesn't progress at all then it's worth considering at the end of his rookie contract....

Dude is 23 and still probably top.... 13-16 LT? I might even be underselling him.

I just think it's WAY too early for this to even be a discussion, especially when there is no alternative at LT besides drafting another rookie who has to play immediately at the same spot.

Not opposed to drafting a guard, not opposed to drafting a RIGHT tackle and sliding Lucas inside, but cross is the last movement I want to see on a garbage OL

 

[bigcc]

Would it matter if we end up drafting Penix, who is a lefty?

Cross reminds me of Okung. Not amazing, but just good enough where it doesn't feel worth replacing him.

That's about where I'm at.

I highly doubt he's ever going to flip a switch and be an all pro kind of guy, but I could see borderline pro bowl being a regular thing.

Dude turned 23 at the end of November last season, he's still SUPER young for a tackle.

 

[chrispy]

Replacing Cross means no replacement somewhere else. There are numerous other spots that are more urgent.

 

[Spin Doctor]

Well, we've tried it and weren't very successful. Germaine Ifedi and Justin Britt come to mind.

Britt was pretty successful as a center for us, probably the best center we've had since Unger.

 

[12forlife]

Replacing Cross means no replacement somewhere else. There are numerous other spots that are more urgent.

I've pointed this out before, and didn't get much response.
I think we all agree Cross is just good @ LT, doesn't have a mean streak, and not overall strong. So we probably don't want to pay him top dollar LT money.
Lucas's knee might not hold up at RT.
How about we Draft a new LT, move Cross to RT, and bump Lucas into RG?

 

[RiverDog]

Britt was pretty successful as a center for us, probably the best center we've had since Unger.

Yeah, Britt was OK, but nothing spectacular. Plus, they moved him from tackle to guard before he finally found a home at center. The multiple position moves had the smell of a coach trying to save face with a bad draft pick than actually doing what was best for the team.

Britt played just 2.5 seasons at center. If he's the best center we've had since Unger, then it says more about our utter failure to adequately address that position than it says about Britt.

 

[RiverDog]

I've pointed this out before, and didn't get much response.
I think we all agree Cross is just good @ LT, doesn't have a mean streak, and not overall strong. So we probably don't want to pay him top dollar LT money.
Lucas's knee might not hold up at RT.
How about we Draft a new LT, move Cross to RT, and bump Lucas into RG?

That might be an option a year from now, but for the time being, let's give Cross a chance to see if he can improve and if Lucas can recover from his knee problems.

Cross has never played more than a few snaps at RT since starting at LT as a freshman at MSU. He hasn't been playing that badly for us to consider such an experiment this early in his career. Besides, if we end up drafting a southpaw QB like Penix, it might change our entire outlook on our OT's.

Having said that, if there's a stud LT available at #16 overall, I wouldn't be opposed to taking him. That's not a bad position to have some depth at. If Cross doesn't show some improvement, we're not likely to pick up his 5th year option.

 

[Spin Doctor]

Yeah, Britt was OK, but nothing spectacular. Plus, they moved him from tackle to guard before he finally found a home at center. The multiple position moves had the smell of a coach trying to save face with a bad draft pick than actually doing what was best for the team.

Britt played just 2.5 seasons at center. If he's the best center we've had since Unger, then it says more about our utter failure to adequately address that position than it says about Britt.

He was decent as a center and for half a season he was okay at guard. At center he even was a probowl alternate. He wasn't the best center in the world, but he was no slouch either. After a knee injury he never quite recovered.

 

[RiverDog]

He was decent as a center and for half a season he was okay at guard. At center he even was a probowl alternate. He wasn't the best center in the world, but he was no slouch either. After a knee injury he never quite recovered.

I never said that he wasn't. But if the best we can offer in the past nine years since we traded Max Unger is Justin Britt, something is horribly wrong with our efforts to fill that position.

 

[chris98251]

I never said that he wasn't. But if the best we can offer in the past nine years since we traded Max Unger is Justin Britt, something is horribly wrong with our efforts to fill that position.

Yep we long for the days of Chris Spencer again.......