To move Cross, or not to move Cross?

[RiverDog]

Yep we long for the days of Chris Spencer again.......

Eee gads, that was baaaaaad.

 

[bigcc]

I've pointed this out before, and didn't get much response.
I think we all agree Cross is just good @ LT, doesn't have a mean streak, and not overall strong. So we probably don't want to pay him top dollar LT money.
Lucas's knee might not hold up at RT.
How about we Draft a new LT, move Cross to RT, and bump Lucas into RG?

Tell me, how many 21 year old LT's have been better than "just good" in nfl history?

You know what makes more sense than replacing the "just good" extremely young LT?

Sliding Lucas to RG, and drafting a RT in the 3rd.

You criticized cross for not having a mean streak, which is typically a trait you want at RT.

Only scenario this warrants serious consideration is if we draft penix (left handed), and even then probably not.

 

[bigcc]

I never said that he wasn't. But if the best we can offer in the past nine years since we traded Max Unger is Justin Britt, something is horribly wrong with our efforts to fill that position.

I thought olu played pretty well and I'm curious if he can take a step forward.

Either way, worth noting that huff is one of the few coaching hires so far I feel comfortable saying was an absolute homerun, and I expect the OL to take a SIGNIFICANT step forward this year even if the same personnel.

 

[RiverDog]

I thought olu played pretty well and I'm curious if he can take a step forward.

Either way, worth noting that huff is one of the few coaching hires so far I feel comfortable saying was an absolute homerun, and I expect the OL to take a SIGNIFICANT step forward this year even if the same personnel.

In his limited snaps, PFF graded Olu out as pretty fair in pass blocking. As a matter of fact, if you ignore the snap count filter, Olu would have been the 6th ranked pass blocking center out of 57 players, which is damn good.

But he was horrible in run blocking. Olu's overall grade was 53.1, slightly worse than Evan Brown's 55.5. Brown's ranking placed him 27th out of 36 ranked centers.

Obviously, it's too early to pass judgement on Olu, but nor would I pencil him in as the solution to our center dilemma.

As far as our OL taking a step forward, they only have one way to go. We were the 28th ranked offensive line in 2023. It can't get much worse.

 

[toffee]

In his limited snaps, PFF graded Olu out as pretty fair in pass blocking. As a matter of fact, if you ignore the snap count, Olu would have been the 6th ranked pass blocking center out of 57 players, which is damn good.

But he was horrible in run blocking. Olu's overall grade was 53.1, slightly worse than Evan Brown's 55.5. Brown's ranking placed him 27th out of 36 ranked centers.

Obviously, it's too early to pass judgement on Olu, but nor would I pencil him in as our solution to our center dilemma.

As far as our OL taking a step forward, they only have one way to go. We were the 30th ranked offensive line in 2023. It can't get much worse.

Great points, according to PFF, Olu was our BEST pass blocking lineman. More interestingly, when it to run blocking all starters SUCKED, with three of our backup Stone, Curhan, and Peters as our best run blockers. For reasons only known to coaches, they have more snaps to Anthony Bradford instead of Olu.

 

[RiverDog]

Great points, according to PFF, Olu was our BEST pass blocking lineman. More interestingly, when it to run blocking all starters SUCKED, with three of our backup Stone, Curhan, and Peters as our best run blockers. For reasons only known to coaches, they have more snaps to Anthony Bradford instead of Olu.
View attachment 65170

For those of you who want to move Charles Cross to RT, take a look at those grades and tell me who it is that you want to replace him with. A rookie draft pick? Are you going to sign one in FA?

Although he has plenty of room for improvement, Cross wasn't all that bad, certainly not bad enough to pull the plug on him. If we're looking to improve our OL performance, there's other positions where we can make bigger strides.

 

[chris98251]

I would argue that since what 2012 our O line has been a continual portrayal of abysmal, no matter how many players we throw at it we can't seem to have a adequate run and pass blocking ranking across the board, I am not even saying good adequate. Now given the time and resources thrown at it is it the players or the system we tried to play. We wanted the moving zone blocking system at first, then wanted to change it to doing it with Bigger guys which we have never been able to implement with success.

Additionally many of our guys went to other teams and become solid to very good starters for them, throw in that even in College Pete's QB took more sacks then almost anyone.

 

[12forlife]

Tell me, how many 21 year old LT's have been better than "just good" in nfl history?

You know what makes more sense than replacing the "just good" extremely young LT?

Sliding Lucas to RG, and drafting a RT in the 3rd.

You criticized cross for not having a mean streak, which is typically a trait you want at RT.

Only scenario this warrants serious consideration is if we draft penix (left handed), and even then probably not.

No sorry to disagree, you want dawg/mean streaks in both your tackles!
Ask yourself this, if you bump Cross to RT your not having to pay him top dollar LT money. Which I don't believe he is gonna be worth what a starting Left tackle demands? Cross will be 24yr old this November.
I'm not screaming for this on the top of my soap box, it is just a thought/option with considering our draft position and literally having no idea of what we will do with the pick, with the depth @ the LT & RT I just wanted to see if people entertained that option? It's all speculation & fans "want list" @ this point.

 

[SeaWolv]

Especially since you could argue every member of the Hawks underachieved last year. Well, maybe not Mafe or Witherspoon.

Metcalf didn't and Love didn't. Pretty much everyone else, except those 4, underachieved.

 

[SeaWolv]

I'm not sure about Riq. His big problem is tackling, which is a fundamental skill he should have had for quite some time. He may have had the same problem in '22, just that it wasn't exposed like it was this past season.

Per PFF, Woolen has been a liability in run defense for both 2022 (47.8) and 2023 (37.3).

 

[SeaWolv]

For those of you who want to move Charles Cross to RT, take a look at those grades and tell me who it is that you want to replace him with. A rookie draft pick? Are you going to sign one in FA?

Although he has plenty of room for improvement, Cross wasn't all that bad, certainly not bad enough to pull the plug on him. If we're looking to improve our OL performance, there's other positions where we can make bigger strides.

These are valid points and I agree we don't have a lot of options right now for LT. Not to mention when you look at a lot of the top LT's in the league most of them sucked their first couple of years and then you start to see significant increases. So either way it looks liker Cross is likely to get at least another year to show he can be serviceable.

Per Toffee's PFF share above, thanks for that, it's clear Cross is not the biggest problem on our mediocre OLine. We've got 4 other spots to worry about more than LT. So that leaves LG, C, RG and RT as areas needing significant improvement. Can Oluwatimi improve his run blocking to be more like his promising pass blocking and replace Brown? Can Bradford improve in his sophomore season under Huff and replace Lewis or Haynes? Can Lewis return to his 2022 version or Haynes to his 2021 version? Can Lucas even play and if so can he play like his 2022 version? I doubt the answer to all of these questions is yes and so we may need to draft/sign a G and/or a RT.

 

[toffee]

These are valid points and I agree we don't have a lot of options right now for LT. Not to mention when you look at a lot of the top LT's in the league most of them sucked their first couple of years and then you start to see significant increases. So either way it looks liker Cross is likely to get at least another year to show he can be serviceable.

Per Toffee's PFF share above, thanks for that, it's clear Cross is not the biggest problem on our mediocre OLine. We've got 4 other spots to worry about more than LT. So that leaves LG, C, RG and RT as areas needing significant improvement. Can Oluwatimi improve his run blocking to be more like his promising pass blocking and replace Brown? Can Bradford improve in his sophomore season under Huff and replace Lewis or Haynes? Can Lewis return to his 2022 version or Haynes to his 2021 version? Can Lucas even play and if so can he play like his 2022 version? I doubt the answer to all of these questions is yes and so we may need to draft/sign a G and/or a RT.

Haynes was better in 2021, and Lewis in 2022, both under Solari, and his system. Moving to zone block in 2023 saw regressions across the line, could the switch caused issues?

 

[12forlife]

Per PFF, Woolen has been a liability in run defense for both 2022 (47.8) and 2023 (37.3).

He will need to be replaced in due time, might have to roll with him until we get the ship headed in the right direction. Arnold @ #16, is a wildcard!

 

[RiverDog]

I would argue that since what 2012 our O line has been a continual portrayal of abysmal, no matter how many players we throw at it we can't seem to have a adequate run and pass blocking ranking across the board, I am not even saying good adequate. Now given the time and resources thrown at it is it the players or the system we tried to play. We wanted the moving zone blocking system at first, then wanted to change it to doing it with Bigger guys which we have never been able to implement with success.

Additionally many of our guys went to other teams and become solid to very good starters for them, throw in that even in College Pete's QB took more sacks then almost anyone.

Yup. Pete's Achilles heal was the offensive line. A few years ago, perhaps after our 2021 draft when we had just four selections and bypassed Creed Humphrey for Dee Eskridge, I did a little homework, averaged the draft position where we took an offe

Per PFF, Woolen has been a liability in run defense for both 2022 (47.8) and 2023 (37.3).

Maybe exposed wasn't the best term. Due to a couple of spectacular plays in 2022, they tended to overshadow some of his weaknesses that minus those plays in 2023, allowed them to become more apparent.

 

[Maelstrom787]

Cross is currently average at worst with upside (and above average in terms of pass blocking savvy), especially with a new OC with an OL background coming in. Keep him where he is. He's a good young talent on a rookie contract. He can mirror, his feet are great, and he stays level. He doesn't mess up assignments. He just needs to develop a bit more power and he'll be a top-10 left tackle. Far from a liability.

I'm not even close to considering a tackle anywhere high in the draft unless it's to replace Abe Lucas should his knee genuinely be shot. We do need a swing tackle, but that can be addressed with a paltry FA contract or a mid rounder. That's something you target in the fourth round, like a Roger Rosengarten, or throw a 2 year/7-8 mil contract at.

 

[RiverDog]

Cross is currently average at worst with upside (and above average in terms of pass blocking savvy), especially with a new OC with an OL background coming in. Keep him where he is. He's a good young talent on a rookie contract. He can mirror, his feet are great, and he stays level. He doesn't mess up assignments. He just needs to develop a bit more power and he'll be a top-10 left tackle. Far from a liability.

I'm not even close to considering a tackle anywhere high in the draft unless it's to replace Abe Lucas should his knee genuinely be shot. We do need a swing tackle, but that can be addressed with a paltry FA contract or a mid rounder. That's something you target in the fourth round, like a Roger Rosengarten, or throw a 2 year/7-8 mil contract at.

Unlike wide receivers and running backs, of whom we've spent multiple high picks on even though we had solid starters already on the roster, an offensive tackle plays on every down no matter the game situation. I'm not advocating that we pick an offensive tackle high in the draft, but if a really good one falls to us, by all means I think we pull the trigger.

Neither Cross nor Lucas, even when completely healthy, are proficient enough to where they should be considered untouchable. A player needs to be of Pro Bowl caliber before one writes their names in ink.

 

[SeaWolv]

A player needs to be of Pro Bowl caliber before one writes their names in blood.

FIFY

 

[bigcc]

Unlike wide receivers and running backs, of whom we've spent multiple high picks on even though we had solid starters already on the roster, an offensive tackle plays on every down no matter the game situation. I'm not advocating that we pick an offensive tackle high in the draft, but if a really good one falls to us, by all means I think we pull the trigger.

Neither Cross nor Lucas, even when completely healthy, are proficient enough to where they should be considered untouchable. A player needs to be of Pro Bowl caliber before one writes their names in ink.

Maybe I lost track somewhere on the way, but there's typically more tackles than rbs on any given play

And by that logic te/guards/dt/de/lb/safeties etc count as well

I'm obviously not opposed to taking a Tackle if the right guy falls, I'm of the opinion of best player available more often than not, but that is HIGHLY unlikely to be a LT at PICK SIXTEEN

 

[RiverDog]

Maybe I lost track somewhere on the way, but there's typically more tackles than rbs on any given play

And by that logic te/guards/dt/de/lb/safeties etc count as well

I'm obviously not opposed to taking a Tackle if the right guy falls, I'm of the opinion of best player available more often than not, but that is HIGHLY unlikely to be a LT at PICK SIXTEEN

Oh, I agree, I think it's unlikely that we take an OT at #16, too. I'm just saying that it's not inconceivable if, like you say, the right guy falls.

 

[chris98251]

Lots can happen, QB year a lot of teams may trade up to get one, WR's also if someone really wants to leapfrog to get Harrison.