Serious Question for 49ers Fans

Chawks1 · Nov 29, 2014

Do you think Colon Kaepernick is the real deal?

I ask this because it seems to me he is the one holding the offense back. You have a good stable of WRs, TEs and RBs. The O line the past 3 years has been good enough to win.

But since he has come into the league Kap has always been a one trick pony more or less....he is a first read QB and if it isnt there he leaves the pcoket. He is a solid runner and it is obvious he prefers this to passing. He seems to have a very strong arm but no touch when he needs it. And, just his presence on the sidelines seems to be almost standoffish. He doesn't seem to be reviewing game film, firing up his teammates. He just seems to me to be a guy who plays QB, not the leader of the team. It reflects in his post-game comments and interviews too.

Just curious what 9er faithful see.

Scottemojo · Nov 29, 2014

Chawks1":22clvyll said:
Do you think Colon Kaepernick is the real deal?

I ask this because it seems to me he is the one holding the offense back. You have a good stable of WRs, TEs and RBs. The O line the past 3 years has been good enough to win.

But since he has come into the league Kap has always been a one trick pony more or less....he is a first read QB and if it isnt there he leaves the pcoket. He is a solid runner and it is obvious he prefers this to passing. He seems to have a very strong arm but no touch when he needs it. And, just his presence on the sidelines seems to be almost standoffish. He doesn't seem to be reviewing game film, firing up his teammates. He just seems to me to be a guy who plays QB, not the leader of the team. It reflects in his post-game comments and interviews too.

Just curious what 9er faithful see.

I'm not Niner faithful, but I can tell you what I see.

Kaepernick enjoyed the best line his first year and a half that a new QB can get. He had a simplified offense, full of flood routes, play action with a beast line, one read drag routes and rub plays, and he was tantalizing with those things. Not good all the time, but glimpses of great sometimes.

Management thought, if we surround him with weapons, he will be even better. They added Lloyd and Johnson to a potent trio of Crabs, Gore, and VD.

But then they messed up. With 5 weapons, you cant call half the field floods. Two guys clearing a drag route for Baldwin doesn't work with that many egos. G-Ro decided Kaepernick was ready for a big boy offense (and the front office decided he was ready for a big boy pay day).
Kaepernick wasn't ready. The line that had been healthy for 3 years didn't stay healthy. A big boy offense with multiple reads almost every play, designed for a QB who isn't afraid to get hit and will step into a pocket? Not ready. Maybe never ready.

The two best plays Kaep ran all night Thursday were roll right, throw back left single read calls. Not a coincidence. Multiple reads not to a checkdown happen a couple of times a game for Kaep. He doesn't like to get hit, so he throws off his back foot if there is pressure, which kills his outside accuracy. He scrambles with hope, but not purpose.

Lucky for Santa Clara, they signed him to a deal they can get out of. I guess that the year after this, they are looking to deal him or cut him and move on. Seriously. Santa Clara doesn't settle for second best, the only crime bigger than sucking for the Niners is being good but not great, which is why Harbaugh and Kaepernick will be gone soon.

RationalNiner · Nov 29, 2014

No, he's not a good QB. You give any competent QB the weapons we have on offense and he would play a ton better than Kaepernick. If we had a competent QB and offensive coaching staff, we would likely be 9-3 or 10-2 now. We probably have the most talent in the NFL yet lose the crap teams like the Bears at home. This is thanks to Kaepernick and the horrible offensive coaching staff. Without Fangio and the defense, Harbaugh wouldn't have experienced much success.

Btw, I hate the whole "faithful" BS marketing term.

lvnginhwktwn · Nov 29, 2014

I think he could be way better if we had a OC that plays to his strengths rather than trying to mold him into the ideal QB. Look at RW, though it's not ideal for him to run around or run as much as he does, your OC uses plays that fit his style of play and plays to his strengths giving him options.

IndyHawk · Nov 29, 2014

I think Scotte has it right but I also think mentally Colin might be done..It does happen -Rick Mirer/RG3 are a couple..You can have the tools but between your head has to be strong as a QB..

RolandDeschain · Nov 29, 2014

QB is 80-90% mental. It floors me how much people talk about all the physical tools and how important they are.

rlkats · Nov 29, 2014

Kapernick is a joke i cant stand to watch him always look for the wow play and miss open check downs for positive yards. Im also sick of seeing that idiot dress like a damn rap star. While im on it wtf is up with the lines shaved into his head. Im over him. Love his arm strength and speed but the dude has NOTHING else to offer. Screw the ceiling he reached it. And now is crashing back to earth. All this weapons and this is what he does. I dont give a crap about the pkay calling. You can change plays from what you see but i forgot he still can not read a D.

rideaducati · Nov 29, 2014

It only took niner fans 3 years to figure out what I told them 3 years ago. Kaep sucks.

I'm sure they'll find out about Baalke's lack of talent evaluation skills and Harbaugh's inability to coach up average players soon enough. I told them about these things three years ago too. It's amazing how much fanfare these two guys got considering how many good to great players were there before they were.

hawknation2014 · Nov 30, 2014

rlkats":j1rgtezn said:
Kapernick is a joke i cant stand to watch him always look for the wow play and miss open check downs for positive yards. Im also sick of seeing that idiot dress like a damn rap star. While im on it wtf is up with the lines shaved into his head. Im over him. Love his arm strength and speed but the dude has NOTHING else to offer. Screw the ceiling he reached it. And now is crashing back to earth. All this weapons and this is what he does. I dont give a crap about the pkay calling. You can change plays from what you see but i forgot he still can not read a D.

Alien lobotomy?

hawksfansinceday1 · Nov 30, 2014

rlkats":3k7frwm5 said:
..........Im also sick of seeing that idiot dress like a damn rap star. While im on it wtf is up with the lines shaved into his head........

You know what I don't understand............by most accounts he's a good kid and pretty strong in his (Christian) faith. So why the type of image you're referring to? I don't get it and never have.

As for his QB play/skills, he's one of many who were able to "out athlete" people their whole lives (RG III, Cam, etc.) and now are in a place where they can't do it anymore and he hasn't been able to adjust and it this point it appears he never will. As Roland said, playing QB is hugely mental.

Scottemojo · Nov 30, 2014

Full disclosure, I can't stand Kaepernick's attitude, and I have not liked him since the Senior Bowl, I was actually afraid the Hawks might take him and was so glad they didn't.

But any of you writing him off as done or sucking are missing the point.

His Super Bowl appearance was the perfect portrait of his talents. A talented player on the most talented team in the league that year, he started the game awfully, trying to make accurate throws with some pressure to outside targets. After the lights went out, the Niners put him where he shines, in space running and hitting 20 yard spot throws between the numbers working off play action.

He lost the game the same way he started it, not able to make throws from different arm angles with some pressure.

Kaepernick has worked hard this year to be a better pocket passer, and when he has time and a clean pocket he can look great. His roots as a pitcher show when he gets to step into his throws. His throw over Earl in the NFCCG was a baseball throw from third to first, even on the move he stepped into it an threw a BB to the only place he could.

But when he can't step into throws, or when he tries to take some off, he struggles. His offensive line is a shell of last year, and it has shown in his game. Kaepernick needs a safe pocket feeling to stay calm when he plays.

Seahawk fans saying he sucks have to ignore his overall body of work to do so. Struggling to beat one team does not mean you suck. Kaep vs 30 other teams (The Ravens have his number as well) he is at worst a ball protecting game manager, and when needed, a gazelle. Ask the Packers if he sucks. Show me a defense lacking speed, I will show you an easy win for the Niners.

Gawd, I can't believe you guys made me say nice stuff about Kaepernick.

rideaducati · Nov 30, 2014

hawknation2014":1jiczgih said:
rlkats":1jiczgih said:

Kapernick is a joke i cant stand to watch him always look for the wow play and miss open check downs for positive yards. Im also sick of seeing that idiot dress like a damn rap star. While im on it wtf is up with the lines shaved into his head. Im over him. Love his arm strength and speed but the dude has NOTHING else to offer. Screw the ceiling he reached it. And now is crashing back to earth. All this weapons and this is what he does. I dont give a crap about the pkay calling. You can change plays from what you see but i forgot he still can not read a D.

Click to expand...

Alien lobotomy?

Richard Sherman's autograph.

OkieHawk · Nov 30, 2014

Scottemojo":wetwad75 said:
Full disclosure, I can't stand Kaepernick's attitude, and I have not liked him since the Senior Bowl, I was actually afraid the Hawks might take him and was so glad they didn't.

But any of you writing him off as done or sucking are missing the point.

His Super Bowl appearance was the perfect portrait of his talents. A talented player on the most talented team in the league that year, he started the game awfully, trying to make accurate throws with some pressure to outside targets. After the lights went out, the Niners put him where he shines, in space running and hitting 20 yard spot throws between the numbers working off play action.

He lost the game the same way he started it, not able to make throws from different arm angles with some pressure.

Kaepernick has worked hard this year to be a better pocket passer, and when he has time and a clean pocket he can look great. His roots as a pitcher show when he gets to step into his throws. His throw over Earl in the NFCCG was a baseball throw from third to first, even on the move he stepped into it an threw a BB to the only place he could.

But when he can't step into throws, or when he tries to take some off, he struggles. His offensive line is a shell of last year, and it has shown in his game. Kaepernick needs a safe pocket feeling to stay calm when he plays.

Seahawk fans saying he sucks have to ignore his overall body of work to do so. Struggling to beat one team does not mean you suck. Kaep vs 30 other teams (The Ravens have his number as well) he is at worst a ball protecting game manager, and when needed, a gazelle. Ask the Packers if he sucks. Show me a defense lacking speed, I will show you an easy win for the Niners.

Gawd, I can't believe you guys made me say nice stuff about Kaepernick.

Good points Scott, and it is important to note that while we have his number, GB never will. :twisted:

pehawk · Nov 30, 2014

RolandDeschain":1f23vvmm said:
QB is 80-90% mental. It floors me how much people talk about all the physical tools and how important they are.

Because physical traits are the only measurable those without a tao understanding of the game can see. If I read a blogger or draftnik who simply recites advanced stats and/or measurables, I know they're kind of a hack. They're leaning on the safe pillow of math, which cant be disproven, and is only dwarfed by abstinence in terms of "safety".

Look at this board even two years ago. A lot of REALLY smart posters we're actually saying Kap's good. They couldn't see the forest though the trees, and notice he had the easiest starting QB gig in the NFL (Oline, defense, offensive savant at HC). It got so bad some smart people on this board we're practicing revisionist history, saying the Hawks liked Kap that draft. When in fact, they only liked him running, that's it. A lot of smart people on this board we're too scared to admit the emperor was naked.

Much like Flynn/Wilson was a good litmus test to separate the hacks from the smarts, Kap is a good way to measure someone's football knowledge. If you we're afraid two years ago to simply say "umm, he's a one trick pony, one year wonder, Don Majikowski", you're a novice.

I wish I could call the above "real talk" or "spin zone".

hawksfansinceday1 · Nov 30, 2014

Some of it is observing the mental aspects as they manifest themselves physically too Pe ^^^

Let me explain: for example, when I watched the 3rd preseason game vs. KC in Wilson's rookie season, his first ever start as a Hawk, I saw him looking off a safety on at least one play and progressing through his reads simply by watching his head. I knew then and there he had a helluva chance to be a quality starting QB in the NFL cuz rooks rarely do these things. An observation of physical traits that are extensions of mental aspects of the position.

I also posted a thread on these observations the very next day and got very little response. I was surprised because to me it was very telling.

I feel the same about Marcus Mariota. I watch him play and he progresses through his reads, looks off safeties and rarely throws into double coverage. Those are traits that spell success at the position. We'll see with him of course in the coming years but I'd be very surprised if he failed at the next level.

pehawk · Nov 30, 2014

hawksfansinceday1":84nweqra said:
Some of it is observing the mental aspects as they manifest themselves physically too Pe ^^^

Let me explain: for example, when I watched the 3rd preseason game vs. KC in Wilson's rookie season, his first ever start as a Hawk, I saw him looking off a safety on at least one play and progressing through his reads simply by watching his head. I knew then and there he had a helluva chance to be a quality starting QB in the NFL cuz rooks rarely do these things. An observation of physical traits that are extensions of mental aspects of the position.

I also posted a thread on these observations the very next day and got very little response. I was surprised because to me it was very telling.

I feel the same about Marcus Mariota. I watch him play and he progresses through his reads, looks off safeties and rarely throws into double coverage. Those are traits that spell success at the position. We'll see with him of course in the coming years but I'd be very surprised if he failed at the next level.

Yup. We all have those processes we use to evaluate QB's.

One of my things to look for in young QB's is reads and in particular deep reads.

I just saw Mettenberger rifle a seam for a TD just now. It was a deep throw and his 2nd option. That's why I like him, a lot, he showed that in the preseason.

Another one is number of different receivers hit in a game. If you hit like 6+ dudes in a game, for a rook, that usually translate well later on. Although Bradford did that, WELL, in his first year and he hasn't lived up to his billing.

Kap hasn't ever been good at either of those things I listed above.

hawksfansinceday1 · Nov 30, 2014

pehawk":3riq11q6 said:
hawksfansinceday1":3riq11q6 said:

Some of it is observing the mental aspects as they manifest themselves physically too Pe ^^^

Let me explain: for example, when I watched the 3rd preseason game vs. KC in Wilson's rookie season, his first ever start as a Hawk, I saw him looking off a safety on at least one play and progressing through his reads simply by watching his head. I knew then and there he had a helluva chance to be a quality starting QB in the NFL cuz rooks rarely do these things. An observation of physical traits that are extensions of mental aspects of the position.

I also posted a thread on these observations the very next day and got very little response. I was surprised because to me it was very telling.

I feel the same about Marcus Mariota. I watch him play and he progresses through his reads, looks off safeties and rarely throws into double coverage. Those are traits that spell success at the position. We'll see with him of course in the coming years but I'd be very surprised if he failed at the next level.

Click to expand...

Yup. We all have those processes we use to evaluate QB's.

One of my things to look for in young QB's is reads and in particular deep reads.

I just saw Mettenberger rifle a seam for a TD just now. It was a deep throw and his 2nd option. That's why I like him, a lot, he showed that in the preseason.

Another one is number of different receivers hit in a game. If you hit like 6+ dudes in a game, for a rook, that usually translate well later on. Although Bradford did that, WELL, in his first year and he hasn't lived up to his billing.

Kap hasn't ever been good at either of those things I listed above.

Another of mine is TD to int ratio. If it's high it means he's careful with the ball, doesn't throw into double coverage.....his decision making process/his reads are solid.
I never thought of the number of different receivers thing. Makes sense. I will pay more attention to that.

lucky49 · Nov 30, 2014

I think he was ruined by the coaching as much as he was helped. Wouldn't have developed at all with out Harbaugh but then Harbaugh and/or Roman screwed it up. situation is kinda like rg3 though not as terrible. He isn't a pocket passer at all but they tried soooo hard to make him one because thats how the game is played or whatever. and theres so much arrogance between roman and harbaugh. they won't admit their mistakes. ever

rideaducati · Nov 30, 2014

lucky49":3uu3t8rh said:
I think he was ruined by the coaching as much as he was helped. Wouldn't have developed at all with out Harbaugh but then Harbaugh and/or Roman screwed it up. situation is kinda like rg3 though not as terrible. He isn't a pocket passer at all but they tried soooo hard to make him one because thats how the game is played or whatever. and theres so much arrogance between roman and harbaugh. they won't admit their mistakes. ever

He hasn't developed at all even with Harbaugh. He still looks at only one WR on pass plays and relies on his arm to put the ball in after that WR gets open. I wonder if they even watch film after games they win. If they did, they would see missed WRs that were running WIDE OPEN when Kaep passed into double coverage. I bet if they do watch the film that Harbaugh sounds like a broken record and Kaep has him tuned out. "Yes Colin, he caught the pass, but the correct read was to the WIDE OPEN guy on the other side. That will come back to bite you in the ass sooner or later." Colin: "No worries dog."

Marvin49 · Nov 30, 2014

Scottemojo":1xt1lxqn said:
Full disclosure, I can't stand Kaepernick's attitude, and I have not liked him since the Senior Bowl, I was actually afraid the Hawks might take him and was so glad they didn't.

But any of you writing him off as done or sucking are missing the point.

His Super Bowl appearance was the perfect portrait of his talents. A talented player on the most talented team in the league that year, he started the game awfully, trying to make accurate throws with some pressure to outside targets. After the lights went out, the Niners put him where he shines, in space running and hitting 20 yard spot throws between the numbers working off play action.

He lost the game the same way he started it, not able to make throws from different arm angles with some pressure.

Kaepernick has worked hard this year to be a better pocket passer, and when he has time and a clean pocket he can look great. His roots as a pitcher show when he gets to step into his throws. His throw over Earl in the NFCCG was a baseball throw from third to first, even on the move he stepped into it an threw a BB to the only place he could.

But when he can't step into throws, or when he tries to take some off, he struggles. His offensive line is a shell of last year, and it has shown in his game. Kaepernick needs a safe pocket feeling to stay calm when he plays.

Seahawk fans saying he sucks have to ignore his overall body of work to do so. Struggling to beat one team does not mean you suck. Kaep vs 30 other teams (The Ravens have his number as well) he is at worst a ball protecting game manager, and when needed, a gazelle. Ask the Packers if he sucks. Show me a defense lacking speed, I will show you an easy win for the Niners.

Gawd, I can't believe you guys made me say nice stuff about Kaepernick.

Sorry man. I know that hurt.

Even on Niner boards I get called a Kap homer. LOL.

I think you are pretty dead on in your post here though. I don't think his SB performance was as bad as you are letting on. The big problem in the SB was the defense and offensive turnovers (and only one of them was his).

Still though, he is a work in progress and he makes mistakes. He'll do something superhuman and then he'll do something that can only make you say WTF. Something about Seattle...they are his Kryptonite. I think nearly half of his CAREER INTs are against Seattle. It's uncanny.

My opinion of him? I think he's got the tools (and I think he's got it between the ears as well even though that's an unpopular opinion of late). I think he biggest issue right now is developing into a true pocket passer and I don't really know if he's ever going to be that. I think movement and play action (something they seem to have decided to steer away from this year) are the way to maximize his potential. If you watch him all the time, you can see where he has improved...getting through his reads much faster, taking some heat off the ball...you can see him improve in those areas...but now its almost like he's lost what made him good. He was DEADLY accurate down the field...but now he's putting air under those throws and they are either off-target or a jump-ball.

I think in the end here they need to let Roman go and that might in turn mean having to let Harbaugh go. Harbaugh rebuilt this entire thing but I don't think the 49ers will ever truly know exactly what they have in Kap until they get him with another OC and possibly HC.

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