Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Fire Pete

The Original Seattle Seahawks Fan Forum Community. There simply is NO substitute for Seahawks Talk, News, Rumors, Trades, and Analytics. LANGUAGE: PG-13
Re: Fire Pete
Mon Dec 28, 2020 7:17 pm
  • TwistedHusky wrote:Disagree.

    It is near impossible to dislike Pete. The issue is PeteBall. Not Pete.

    A problem is Pete is successful enough he does not need to change.

    With Pete, he will always improve your roster. Grow/Build/Develop, whatever...

    But that also means he is going to create rosters that seem better than results. Almost invariably.

    The challenge is that without Pete you don't get those rosters.

    So what do you want?
    Great roster with incredible regular season success? Or lesser rosters with lesser regular season success but better results in the playoffs?

    Is Carroll underproducing in the playoffs or overproducing in the regular season and so setting unreasonable postseason expectations?


    What coach has ever done this ^^^^?
    OrangeGravy
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 564
    Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2016 5:47 pm


Re: Fire Pete
Tue Dec 29, 2020 8:39 am
  • OrangeGravy wrote:
    Nunya wrote:
    Spin Doctor wrote:
    pinksheets wrote:Wait, so your line is after we last made a SB we lost not last we won? Is just making the SB the goal or is winning one? Because it sounds like you're drawing an arbitrary line that suits this narrative.

    It's extremely difficult to make the playoffs a lot and also have a strong winning record in the playoffs because unless you win the SB, you're taking a loss.

    Pete has still won a playoff game in each of their last 4 appearances. That's quite good, period. There's not someone who just constantly gets to Conference Championships out waiting in the wings because that's either Belichik or they don't exist.

    We should have lost in Minnesota, and we lost in 2018 against the Cowboys, not a single win that season. Pete does not have what it takes to get us to another Super Bowl. What concerns me is not that we're losing, it is HOW we're losing. We keep making the same mistakes each loss, we keep losing the same way and not adjusting. I highly doubt Pete ever brings us another Super Bowl again, and I doubt he even gets us an NFC Championship game.


    No coach is ever going to meet your expectations. It is statistically impossible. You are setting a standard that is completely unsustainable. Then you use this unrealistic expectation as a measuring stick to determine whether PC will be successful in the off-season.??!!!!????!!???

    The playoffs are a "loser go home" format. It is not like regular season where there are a set number of games to be won or lost. Under the old format:

    1. 12 teams made the playoffs.
    2. 4 of those teams are guaranteed to be "one and done".....that is 33% of the teams.
    3. The 4 top seeded teams that received a bye week could be "one and done" if they under perform.
    4. Assuming the top 1 and 2 seeds all win, 4 teams will be "two and done".
    5. If any of the top seeded teams lose, the "one and done" percentage increases.
    6. Only 4 teams will make the Conference Championship Games (CCG).....that is only 33% of the teams that made the playoffs.
    7. Assuming the top 1 and 2 seeded teams make the CCG, 2 of the teams will have a 1-1 playoff record for that season.
    8. Only 2 teams will make the Superbowl....that is only 16.6% of the teams that make the playoffs.
    9. EVERY team is capable of laying an egg in the playoffs....for a number of reasons that have nothing to do with coaching. Injuries, nerves, weather, away game, poor refereeing, bad bounces, etc can all impact a game's outcome.

    In order for a coach to have a above .500 playoff record, they would pretty much need to get to the Conference Championship Game almost every time they reach the playoffs....however, even then, only 2 of the top seeded teams will be able to break .500.

    Your claim that a coach that consistently has 10+ wins a season suddenly does not have "what it takes" to advance in the playoff is asinine. You are talking about the 6 best teams from each Conference. It does not take a genius to understand that stiff competition would be expected....even from the teams that just "squeaked in".

    The coaching is not the problem......the problem is your unrealistic expectations.

    Great post.
    Everyone wanting Pete gone knows this. They can't or won't admit that what they really want is a coach and a team that puts up great stats on offense. They want a team their team to get a lot of attention in the social media world and the fantasy world. Some of them would choose those things above winning games. I imagine some fans just hate Pete's style and are willing to risk being bad for a decade or more just to see something different. I can't understand that at all. Those fans will tell you they only feel that way because they know for a FACT, that Pete can't win again, but it's just an excuse to justify what they want and know is an irrational opinion. Forget your outline above that shows just how hard it is to get to the SB in any given year. I would have so much more respect for those opinions if they were just honest about what they truly want and why. All of the excuses and circular logic they use is just nonsense to avoid having to backup an opinion that doesn't make sense in any way shape or form.


    Correct, Pete is a top 5 coach in this league, top 3 really, we have had it so good the last 12 years. This kind of nonsense is more emotional based drivel, facts don't matter.
    Ambrose83
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 1654
    Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 11:54 pm


Re: Fire Pete
Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:03 am
  • A lot of these same arguments could have been made by Green Bay fans to keep MM. He got them to the playoffs. But they knew that a better coach would get better results with a QB that should have been driving better results.

    I see a lot of #s being thrown about.

    Pete is a #3 coach in the league. Russ is a top 5 QB. (Some player votes had him top 2 last year). Our roster is ranked in the top 5 regularly.

    Have we been getting top 5 results in the playoffs? Or just been glorified wildcards?

    The reason for the focus on the value of Pete building a roster is imperative. That is a Pete thing. Yes, 'all coaches develop lower drafted players' etc. But it is comically rare for a team to go into a season with a weakness (pass rush) and have it be top 5 by end of year. Same thing with losing starters to injury and actually improving (CB). All coaches develop talent etc. Pete does it better than almost anyone.

    And he does it regularly.

    He just does less with the better roster once he has it. Under another coach your roster quality is going to dip. Your holes are going to be magnified. And you will have less guys like Reed suddenly turning into top quality players seemingly out of nowhere.

    Most elite QBs (and no Stafford, Ryan, Rivers, etc are NOT elite. Which is funny), are expensive. Ours is no exception. So you get thin rosters or giant weaknesses. Typically, non-Bradyish elite QBs in the new era regularly miss the playoffs 1-2 years out of 5. But they also tend to win a division playoff game 1-2 years out of 5. Sample size is small though. Mahomes, like Brady, seems to be bucking this trend.

    Under Pete, with an elite QB, we are typically making the playoffs. Because Pete keeps our roster competitive. Which is incredibly difficult to consistently do with the QB taking such a % of cap. Because of this we usually make the playoffs.

    We are usually outclassed in divisional playoff games, however.

    The defining line of success/failure is subjective here.

    If you feel making the playoffs consistently but also consistently being bounced, if not embarrassed, after the wildcard is success? Then Pete is the coach for you. If you feel that Wilson should occasionally be at least making a conference game in 5 years given the roster and his being an elite QB? Then Pete is underperforming.

    Since the SB loss, Pete has coached with a high floor, low ceiling approach that works. But since the SB loss, he has not put together the playoff success you would expect from a top 3 or even top 5 coach with this kind of QB and this kind of roster.
    TwistedHusky
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 4799
    Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2013 7:48 pm


Re: Fire Pete
Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:43 am
  • TwistedHusky wrote:A lot of these same arguments could have been made by Green Bay fans to keep MM. He got them to the playoffs. But they knew that a better coach would get better results with a QB that should have been driving better results.

    I see a lot of #s being thrown about.

    Pete is a #3 coach in the league. Russ is a top 5 QB. (Some player votes had him top 2 last year). Our roster is ranked in the top 5 regularly.

    Have we been getting top 5 results in the playoffs? Or just been glorified wildcards?

    The reason for the focus on the value of Pete building a roster is imperative. That is a Pete thing. Yes, 'all coaches develop lower drafted players' etc. But it is comically rare for a team to go into a season with a weakness (pass rush) and have it be top 5 by end of year. Same thing with losing starters to injury and actually improving (CB). All coaches develop talent etc. Pete does it better than almost anyone.

    And he does it regularly.

    He just does less with the better roster once he has it. Under another coach your roster quality is going to dip. Your holes are going to be magnified. And you will have less guys like Reed suddenly turning into top quality players seemingly out of nowhere.

    Most elite QBs (and no Stafford, Ryan, Rivers, etc are NOT elite. Which is funny), are expensive. Ours is no exception. So you get thin rosters or giant weaknesses. Typically, non-Bradyish elite QBs in the new era regularly miss the playoffs 1-2 years out of 5. But they also tend to win a division playoff game 1-2 years out of 5. Sample size is small though. Mahomes, like Brady, seems to be bucking this trend.

    Under Pete, with an elite QB, we are typically making the playoffs. Because Pete keeps our roster competitive. Which is incredibly difficult to consistently do with the QB taking such a % of cap. Because of this we usually make the playoffs.

    We are usually outclassed in divisional playoff games, however.

    The defining line of success/failure is subjective here.

    If you feel making the playoffs consistently but also consistently being bounced, if not embarrassed, after the wildcard is success? Then Pete is the coach for you. If you feel that Wilson should occasionally be at least making a conference game in 5 years given the roster and his being an elite QB? Then Pete is underperforming.

    Since the SB loss, Pete has coached with a high floor, low ceiling approach that works. But since the SB loss, he has not put together the playoff success you would expect from a top 3 or even top 5 coach with this kind of QB and this kind of roster.


    Your whole argument is based around some roster rating and that PC is doing less with more. Please provide those roster ratings.
    Nunya
    NET Rookie
     
    Posts: 212
    Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:20 am


Re: Fire Pete
Tue Dec 29, 2020 11:50 am
  • Ad Hawk wrote:
    hawksincebirth wrote:Can we just appreciate everyone’s opinion. We won the west let’s enjoy it like you positive patties say


    No, there is no need or responsibility to appreciate ridiculous opinions. They are open to criticism and rejection. Not all opinions are equal in value, even in our politically correct world of everyone getting a trophy.

    Wanting PC replaced is a ridiculous opinion, and should be rejected outright.

    That's my opinion. :D


    It’s really not as ridiculous as you think.
    Wanting a serious contender is not too much to ask for with a top 3 qb. If we lose badly in the second round AGAIN you will keep hearing it
    hawksincebirth
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 622
    Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2012 5:12 pm
    Location: Marysville


Re: Fire Pete
Tue Dec 29, 2020 11:57 am
  • Hawkpower wrote:
    hawksincebirth wrote:Ahhh the annual gloat posts by the kool aid drinkers gotta love em.
    On a side note credit to Pete and ken Norton for turning the defense into an average defense instead of the dumpster fire it was the first half of the season. I still hope for a new coach. But Pete will keep us around 9-11 wins a year with first or second round exits and he’ll play out his contract imo. Can we just appreciate everyone’s opinion. We won the west let’s enjoy it like you positive patties say



    Being happy over yet another division title and an 11-4 record isnt being a kool-aid drinker, its called being a rational and emotionally stable human being.

    By the way, go ahead and take a poll around the league and see how many franchises would sign up quickly for a coach that gets them double digit victories and playoff appearances every year.


    Your twisting my post. My point is over the last 5-6 season the same posters have had blinders for Pete. We shall see what he does in the playoffs but he has been out coached in big games a lot the last few years . How many wins are due to Russ saving Pete’s behind ? I think it’s fair to say russ could win 8-9 games regardless of where he played. Imo.
    I’m enjoying the year and the nfc west title. As much as I want Pete to be outta town I want the team to win even more. Something you guys fail to think is possible.
    hawksincebirth
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 622
    Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2012 5:12 pm
    Location: Marysville


Re: Fire Pete
Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:05 pm
  • Nunya,

    As you know, ratings of rosters are subjective.

    But I think you have seen them. Right now, we are #6 in the power rankings. Earlier in the year, we were even higher.

    Power rankings are a function of both record and perceived roster strength.

    We can probably find multiple roster rankings with us in ranges from 5-7 right now.

    (Depends if you think TB has a better roster than us. I don't. Certainly you could argue the Titans or Steelers might have a better roster, but most people wouldn't.)

    You can also juxtapose the roster rankings with the number of Pro Bowlers on our team. We have a fair amount, while not really displaying massive depth issues that would counter it.

    But again, however you rank the roster - it is going to be subjective by definition because there is no way to objectively rank it adequately.

    At the same time, playoff success is technically a subjective measurement. Because it depends on not just outcomes, but matchups and a number of tradeoffs. Generally you are going either going to be successful wide (consistency) or deep (how far you go in the playoffs when you make it). Pete is very consistent in making the playoffs. But so was Marty Schottenheimer. In truth, Pete would probably be the new Marty Schottenheimer but for the LOB (and the Wilson+Lynch combo).

    So is Pete a success in the playoffs? He is certainly a success at making them. In the past few years, he hasn't put up great results once he got there though.
    TwistedHusky
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 4799
    Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2013 7:48 pm


Re: Fire Pete
Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:35 pm
  • TwistedHusky wrote:Nunya,

    As you know, ratings of rosters are subjective.

    But I think you have seen them. Right now, we are #6 in the power rankings. Earlier in the year, we were even higher.

    Power rankings are a function of both record and perceived roster strength.

    We can probably find multiple roster rankings with us in ranges from 5-7 right now.

    (Depends if you think TB has a better roster than us. I don't. Certainly you could argue the Titans or Steelers might have a better roster, but most people wouldn't.)

    You can also juxtapose the roster rankings with the number of Pro Bowlers on our team. We have a fair amount, while not really displaying massive depth issues that would counter it.

    But again, however you rank the roster - it is going to be subjective by definition because there is no way to objectively rank it adequately.

    At the same time, playoff success is technically a subjective measurement. Because it depends on not just outcomes, but matchups and a number of tradeoffs. Generally you are going either going to be successful wide (consistency) or deep (how far you go in the playoffs when you make it). Pete is very consistent in making the playoffs. But so was Marty Schottenheimer. In truth, Pete would probably be the new Marty Schottenheimer but for the LOB (and the Wilson+Lynch combo).


    Ahhh...straight out of the BSer's handbook. Create an argument based on something without providing evidence, but then claims that the evidence is subjective anyway. Then claim "We can probably find multiple roster rankings with us in ranges from 5-7 right now [trust me]" while still providing no evidence.

    To be honest, I never even paid attention to roster strength. They are right up there with power rankings and chances to win the SB. As you said, very subjective and often not very accurate.

    However, I did use my google skills after you brought it up and was able to find only 2 rankings....PFF and EPSN. Unfortunately, ESPN wants a subscription to read the whole article. Fortunately, the top 3 in the PFF article are the same teams....and the write up was exactly the same, so I'm guessing it is the same (and only?) ranking.

    And guess what. At the start of the 2020 season, The Seahawks DID NOT have a high ranking roster. They were listed as only 15th out of 32. Middle of the pack and only average. The Eagles, Cowboys, and Browns were even ranked higher.

    https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-roster-ran ... guars-last

    Some would say that is a sign of good coaching....to take a 15th ranked roster and build it up to a 2nd or 3rd seeded playoff team and a Divisional Champion and even implies that the team's performance is even OVER-Performing, based on roster rankings.

    I found no other information on roster ranking, including where they are ranked today. Please provide just one of those multiple roster rankings that have the Seahawks at 5-7.

    So is Pete a success in the playoffs? He is certainly a success at making them. In the past few years, he hasn't put up great results once he got there though


    PC's playoff results rank right up there with any other currently active coach (and likely better than most inactive coaches). Why do you seem to want to hold PC to a higher standard?
    Nunya
    NET Rookie
     
    Posts: 212
    Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:20 am


Re: Fire Pete
Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:29 pm
  • hawksincebirth wrote:
    Ad Hawk wrote:
    hawksincebirth wrote:Can we just appreciate everyone’s opinion. We won the west let’s enjoy it like you positive patties say


    No, there is no need or responsibility to appreciate ridiculous opinions. They are open to criticism and rejection. Not all opinions are equal in value, even in our politically correct world of everyone getting a trophy.

    Wanting PC replaced is a ridiculous opinion, and should be rejected outright.

    That's my opinion. :D


    It’s really not as ridiculous as you think.
    Wanting a serious contender is not too much to ask for with a top 3 qb. If we lose badly in the second round AGAIN you will keep hearing it


    And if we don't lose in the second round, and the team goes further, it would be nice to stop hearing it. But sadly, such noise will probably continue for who-knows-what reason next.

    I'm not as interested in the Super-Bowl goal on a weekly basis; I enjoy winning seasons because there's a whole season of fun football to watch. I certainly hope they make it to the final game of the post-season, and believe that out of the available coaches right now, PC gives this team the best chance. Firing him without a clearly better choice would be foolish and lacking foresight.
    Ad Hawk
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 2581
    Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:25 am


Re: Fire Pete
Tue Dec 29, 2020 2:35 pm
  • Power rankings are a few things, hardly accurate, as much as a popularity contest as it is a win loss record, they at ESPN and PFT amongst others do not know our depth really and other then the QB and stars hardly even know where Seattle is. STILL !
    chris98251
    .NET Hijacker
     
    Posts: 34901
    Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:52 pm
    Location: Renton Wa.


Re: Fire Pete
Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:02 pm
  • Nunya wrote:
    TwistedHusky wrote:A lot of these same arguments could have been made by Green Bay fans to keep MM. He got them to the playoffs. But they knew that a better coach would get better results with a QB that should have been driving better results.

    I see a lot of #s being thrown about.

    Pete is a #3 coach in the league. Russ is a top 5 QB. (Some player votes had him top 2 last year). Our roster is ranked in the top 5 regularly.

    Have we been getting top 5 results in the playoffs? Or just been glorified wildcards?

    The reason for the focus on the value of Pete building a roster is imperative. That is a Pete thing. Yes, 'all coaches develop lower drafted players' etc. But it is comically rare for a team to go into a season with a weakness (pass rush) and have it be top 5 by end of year. Same thing with losing starters to injury and actually improving (CB). All coaches develop talent etc. Pete does it better than almost anyone.

    And he does it regularly.

    He just does less with the better roster once he has it. Under another coach your roster quality is going to dip. Your holes are going to be magnified. And you will have less guys like Reed suddenly turning into top quality players seemingly out of nowhere.

    Most elite QBs (and no Stafford, Ryan, Rivers, etc are NOT elite. Which is funny), are expensive. Ours is no exception. So you get thin rosters or giant weaknesses. Typically, non-Bradyish elite QBs in the new era regularly miss the playoffs 1-2 years out of 5. But they also tend to win a division playoff game 1-2 years out of 5. Sample size is small though. Mahomes, like Brady, seems to be bucking this trend.

    Under Pete, with an elite QB, we are typically making the playoffs. Because Pete keeps our roster competitive. Which is incredibly difficult to consistently do with the QB taking such a % of cap. Because of this we usually make the playoffs.

    We are usually outclassed in divisional playoff games, however.

    The defining line of success/failure is subjective here.

    If you feel making the playoffs consistently but also consistently being bounced, if not embarrassed, after the wildcard is success? Then Pete is the coach for you. If you feel that Wilson should occasionally be at least making a conference game in 5 years given the roster and his being an elite QB? Then Pete is underperforming.

    Since the SB loss, Pete has coached with a high floor, low ceiling approach that works. But since the SB loss, he has not put together the playoff success you would expect from a top 3 or even top 5 coach with this kind of QB and this kind of roster.


    Your whole argument is based around some roster rating and that PC is doing less with more. Please provide those roster ratings.


    What Pete Carroll is doing in the NFL is ground breaking... The major reason for his success is because of the mentality that he creates on his team... of course nobody understands that but How many coaches can have the worst defense in the NFL and turn that around into one of the best defenses in the NFL? it's because this team has key leadership Bobby and KJ and KNJ to push Carrolls message... this team worked through MAJOR mountains of adversity they know who they are and what they are capable of and they never stopped believing in themselves even though the media and there own fan base trashed them to the point of calling them garbage...Most teams would have given up...

    But this is not new it's happen's every year some years to a lesser degree... this is the process that Carroll goes through integrating new players into the system and working his units to have the mentality and belief to play championship ball... It takes some time but in the end Carroll has his team ready for the playoffs... But nobody EVER listens to what I say... people just have to go through there own process and in the end, although totally misunderstanding what's happening, we will enjoy a great season...

    Next year it will be the same thing fans moaning and groaning because they don't understand he process and the media feeding the legion of gloom because they need ratings...





    LTH
    LTH
    Silver Supporter
    Silver Supporter
     
    Posts: 1325
    Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:58 pm


Re: Fire Pete
Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:12 pm
  • Good points. Calling your team garbage, super productive :?
    SoulfishHawk
    NET Pro Bowler
     
    Posts: 17124
    Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:59 am
    Location: Sammamish, WA


Re: Fire Pete
Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:28 pm
  • TwistedHusky wrote:A lot of these same arguments could have been made by Green Bay fans to keep MM. He got them to the playoffs. But they knew that a better coach would get better results with a QB that should have been driving better results.

    I see a lot of #s being thrown about.

    Pete is a #3 coach in the league. Russ is a top 5 QB. (Some player votes had him top 2 last year). Our roster is ranked in the top 5 regularly.

    Have we been getting top 5 results in the playoffs? Or just been glorified wildcards?

    The reason for the focus on the value of Pete building a roster is imperative. That is a Pete thing. Yes, 'all coaches develop lower drafted players' etc. But it is comically rare for a team to go into a season with a weakness (pass rush) and have it be top 5 by end of year. Same thing with losing starters to injury and actually improving (CB). All coaches develop talent etc. Pete does it better than almost anyone.

    And he does it regularly.

    He just does less with the better roster once he has it. Under another coach your roster quality is going to dip. Your holes are going to be magnified. And you will have less guys like Reed suddenly turning into top quality players seemingly out of nowhere.

    Most elite QBs (and no Stafford, Ryan, Rivers, etc are NOT elite. Which is funny), are expensive. Ours is no exception. So you get thin rosters or giant weaknesses. Typically, non-Bradyish elite QBs in the new era regularly miss the playoffs 1-2 years out of 5. But they also tend to win a division playoff game 1-2 years out of 5. Sample size is small though. Mahomes, like Brady, seems to be bucking this trend.

    Under Pete, with an elite QB, we are typically making the playoffs. Because Pete keeps our roster competitive. Which is incredibly difficult to consistently do with the QB taking such a % of cap. Because of this we usually make the playoffs.

    We are usually outclassed in divisional playoff games, however.

    The defining line of success/failure is subjective here.

    If you feel making the playoffs consistently but also consistently being bounced, if not embarrassed, after the wildcard is success? Then Pete is the coach for you. If you feel that Wilson should occasionally be at least making a conference game in 5 years given the roster and his being an elite QB? Then Pete is underperforming.

    Since the SB loss, Pete has coached with a high floor, low ceiling approach that works. But since the SB loss, he has not put together the playoff success you would expect from a top 3 or even top 5 coach with this kind of QB and this kind of roster.

    This is an elite post that will be bashed.
    hawksincebirth
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 622
    Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2012 5:12 pm
    Location: Marysville


Re: Fire Pete
Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:43 pm
  • hawksincebirth wrote:
    TwistedHusky wrote:A lot of these same arguments could have been made by Green Bay fans to keep MM. He got them to the playoffs. But they knew that a better coach would get better results with a QB that should have been driving better results.

    I see a lot of #s being thrown about.

    Pete is a #3 coach in the league. Russ is a top 5 QB. (Some player votes had him top 2 last year). Our roster is ranked in the top 5 regularly.

    Have we been getting top 5 results in the playoffs? Or just been glorified wildcards?

    The reason for the focus on the value of Pete building a roster is imperative. That is a Pete thing. Yes, 'all coaches develop lower drafted players' etc. But it is comically rare for a team to go into a season with a weakness (pass rush) and have it be top 5 by end of year. Same thing with losing starters to injury and actually improving (CB). All coaches develop talent etc. Pete does it better than almost anyone.

    And he does it regularly.

    He just does less with the better roster once he has it. Under another coach your roster quality is going to dip. Your holes are going to be magnified. And you will have less guys like Reed suddenly turning into top quality players seemingly out of nowhere.

    Most elite QBs (and no Stafford, Ryan, Rivers, etc are NOT elite. Which is funny), are expensive. Ours is no exception. So you get thin rosters or giant weaknesses. Typically, non-Bradyish elite QBs in the new era regularly miss the playoffs 1-2 years out of 5. But they also tend to win a division playoff game 1-2 years out of 5. Sample size is small though. Mahomes, like Brady, seems to be bucking this trend.

    Under Pete, with an elite QB, we are typically making the playoffs. Because Pete keeps our roster competitive. Which is incredibly difficult to consistently do with the QB taking such a % of cap. Because of this we usually make the playoffs.

    We are usually outclassed in divisional playoff games, however.

    The defining line of success/failure is subjective here.

    If you feel making the playoffs consistently but also consistently being bounced, if not embarrassed, after the wildcard is success? Then Pete is the coach for you. If you feel that Wilson should occasionally be at least making a conference game in 5 years given the roster and his being an elite QB? Then Pete is underperforming.

    Since the SB loss, Pete has coached with a high floor, low ceiling approach that works. But since the SB loss, he has not put together the playoff success you would expect from a top 3 or even top 5 coach with this kind of QB and this kind of roster.

    This is an elite post that will be bashed.


    Wrong! this post is complete garbage... a total misunderstanding of what is happening...


    LTH
    LTH
    Silver Supporter
    Silver Supporter
     
    Posts: 1325
    Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:58 pm


Re: Fire Pete
Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:50 pm
  • Ad Hawk wrote:
    hawksincebirth wrote:
    Ad Hawk wrote:
    hawksincebirth wrote:Can we just appreciate everyone’s opinion. We won the west let’s enjoy it like you positive patties say


    No, there is no need or responsibility to appreciate ridiculous opinions. They are open to criticism and rejection. Not all opinions are equal in value, even in our politically correct world of everyone getting a trophy.

    Wanting PC replaced is a ridiculous opinion, and should be rejected outright.

    That's my opinion. :D


    It’s really not as ridiculous as you think.
    Wanting a serious contender is not too much to ask for with a top 3 qb. If we lose badly in the second round AGAIN you will keep hearing it


    And if we don't lose in the second round, and the team goes further, it would be nice to stop hearing it. But sadly, such noise will probably continue for who-knows-what reason next.

    I'm not as interested in the Super-Bowl goal on a weekly basis; I enjoy winning seasons because there's a whole season of fun football to watch. I certainly hope they make it to the final game of the post-season, and believe that out of the available coaches right now, PC gives this team the best chance. Firing him without a clearly better choice would be foolish and lacking foresight.


    I’m sure like myself plenty of posters will give Pete and co his credit. Im excited for the playoffs and hope for the best. As for the second part of your post I disagree. Nobody is saying fire Pete without a viable replacement. New young and talented coaches come into the league every year. Let’s hope for the best this year
    hawksincebirth
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 622
    Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2012 5:12 pm
    Location: Marysville


Re: Fire Pete
Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:51 pm
  • LTH wrote:
    hawksincebirth wrote:
    TwistedHusky wrote:A lot of these same arguments could have been made by Green Bay fans to keep MM. He got them to the playoffs. But they knew that a better coach would get better results with a QB that should have been driving better results.

    I see a lot of #s being thrown about.

    Pete is a #3 coach in the league. Russ is a top 5 QB. (Some player votes had him top 2 last year). Our roster is ranked in the top 5 regularly.

    Have we been getting top 5 results in the playoffs? Or just been glorified wildcards?

    The reason for the focus on the value of Pete building a roster is imperative. That is a Pete thing. Yes, 'all coaches develop lower drafted players' etc. But it is comically rare for a team to go into a season with a weakness (pass rush) and have it be top 5 by end of year. Same thing with losing starters to injury and actually improving (CB). All coaches develop talent etc. Pete does it better than almost anyone.

    And he does it regularly.

    He just does less with the better roster once he has it. Under another coach your roster quality is going to dip. Your holes are going to be magnified. And you will have less guys like Reed suddenly turning into top quality players seemingly out of nowhere.

    Most elite QBs (and no Stafford, Ryan, Rivers, etc are NOT elite. Which is funny), are expensive. Ours is no exception. So you get thin rosters or giant weaknesses. Typically, non-Bradyish elite QBs in the new era regularly miss the playoffs 1-2 years out of 5. But they also tend to win a division playoff game 1-2 years out of 5. Sample size is small though. Mahomes, like Brady, seems to be bucking this trend.

    Under Pete, with an elite QB, we are typically making the playoffs. Because Pete keeps our roster competitive. Which is incredibly difficult to consistently do with the QB taking such a % of cap. Because of this we usually make the playoffs.

    We are usually outclassed in divisional playoff games, however.

    The defining line of success/failure is subjective here.

    If you feel making the playoffs consistently but also consistently being bounced, if not embarrassed, after the wildcard is success? Then Pete is the coach for you. If you feel that Wilson should occasionally be at least making a conference game in 5 years given the roster and his being an elite QB? Then Pete is underperforming.

    Since the SB loss, Pete has coached with a high floor, low ceiling approach that works. But since the SB loss, he has not put together the playoff success you would expect from a top 3 or even top 5 coach with this kind of QB and this kind of roster.

    This is an elite post that will be bashed.


    Wrong! this post is complete garbage... a total misunderstanding of what is happening...


    LTH

    Feel free to articulate why you think the post is garbage. Or you can just say you disagree with it and carry on without the extras
    hawksincebirth
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 622
    Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2012 5:12 pm
    Location: Marysville


Re: Fire Pete
Tue Dec 29, 2020 5:24 pm
  • hawksincebirth wrote:
    LTH wrote:
    hawksincebirth wrote:
    TwistedHusky wrote:A lot of these same arguments could have been made by Green Bay fans to keep MM. He got them to the playoffs. But they knew that a better coach would get better results with a QB that should have been driving better results.

    I see a lot of #s being thrown about.

    Pete is a #3 coach in the league. Russ is a top 5 QB. (Some player votes had him top 2 last year). Our roster is ranked in the top 5 regularly.

    Have we been getting top 5 results in the playoffs? Or just been glorified wildcards?

    The reason for the focus on the value of Pete building a roster is imperative. That is a Pete thing. Yes, 'all coaches develop lower drafted players' etc. But it is comically rare for a team to go into a season with a weakness (pass rush) and have it be top 5 by end of year. Same thing with losing starters to injury and actually improving (CB). All coaches develop talent etc. Pete does it better than almost anyone.

    And he does it regularly.

    He just does less with the better roster once he has it. Under another coach your roster quality is going to dip. Your holes are going to be magnified. And you will have less guys like Reed suddenly turning into top quality players seemingly out of nowhere.

    Most elite QBs (and no Stafford, Ryan, Rivers, etc are NOT elite. Which is funny), are expensive. Ours is no exception. So you get thin rosters or giant weaknesses. Typically, non-Bradyish elite QBs in the new era regularly miss the playoffs 1-2 years out of 5. But they also tend to win a division playoff game 1-2 years out of 5. Sample size is small though. Mahomes, like Brady, seems to be bucking this trend.

    Under Pete, with an elite QB, we are typically making the playoffs. Because Pete keeps our roster competitive. Which is incredibly difficult to consistently do with the QB taking such a % of cap. Because of this we usually make the playoffs.

    We are usually outclassed in divisional playoff games, however.

    The defining line of success/failure is subjective here.

    If you feel making the playoffs consistently but also consistently being bounced, if not embarrassed, after the wildcard is success? Then Pete is the coach for you. If you feel that Wilson should occasionally be at least making a conference game in 5 years given the roster and his being an elite QB? Then Pete is underperforming.

    Since the SB loss, Pete has coached with a high floor, low ceiling approach that works. But since the SB loss, he has not put together the playoff success you would expect from a top 3 or even top 5 coach with this kind of QB and this kind of roster.

    This is an elite post that will be bashed.


    Wrong! this post is complete garbage... a total misunderstanding of what is happening...


    LTH

    Feel free to articulate why you think the post is garbage. Or you can just say you disagree with it and carry on without the extras


    I've just said it SO many times its not worth the calluses on my typing fingers...I'm worn out trying to refute BS... I probably should not have made the post.. Im just sick of reading this stuff...time to start ignoring posts...

    LTH
    LTH
    Silver Supporter
    Silver Supporter
     
    Posts: 1325
    Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:58 pm


Re: Fire Pete
Tue Dec 29, 2020 5:45 pm
  • hawksincebirth wrote:
    LTH wrote:
    hawksincebirth wrote:
    TwistedHusky wrote:A lot of these same arguments could have been made by Green Bay fans to keep MM. He got them to the playoffs. But they knew that a better coach would get better results with a QB that should have been driving better results.

    I see a lot of #s being thrown about.

    Pete is a #3 coach in the league. Russ is a top 5 QB. (Some player votes had him top 2 last year). Our roster is ranked in the top 5 regularly.

    Have we been getting top 5 results in the playoffs? Or just been glorified wildcards?

    The reason for the focus on the value of Pete building a roster is imperative. That is a Pete thing. Yes, 'all coaches develop lower drafted players' etc. But it is comically rare for a team to go into a season with a weakness (pass rush) and have it be top 5 by end of year. Same thing with losing starters to injury and actually improving (CB). All coaches develop talent etc. Pete does it better than almost anyone.

    And he does it regularly.

    He just does less with the better roster once he has it. Under another coach your roster quality is going to dip. Your holes are going to be magnified. And you will have less guys like Reed suddenly turning into top quality players seemingly out of nowhere.

    Most elite QBs (and no Stafford, Ryan, Rivers, etc are NOT elite. Which is funny), are expensive. Ours is no exception. So you get thin rosters or giant weaknesses. Typically, non-Bradyish elite QBs in the new era regularly miss the playoffs 1-2 years out of 5. But they also tend to win a division playoff game 1-2 years out of 5. Sample size is small though. Mahomes, like Brady, seems to be bucking this trend.

    Under Pete, with an elite QB, we are typically making the playoffs. Because Pete keeps our roster competitive. Which is incredibly difficult to consistently do with the QB taking such a % of cap. Because of this we usually make the playoffs.

    We are usually outclassed in divisional playoff games, however.

    The defining line of success/failure is subjective here.

    If you feel making the playoffs consistently but also consistently being bounced, if not embarrassed, after the wildcard is success? Then Pete is the coach for you. If you feel that Wilson should occasionally be at least making a conference game in 5 years given the roster and his being an elite QB? Then Pete is underperforming.

    Since the SB loss, Pete has coached with a high floor, low ceiling approach that works. But since the SB loss, he has not put together the playoff success you would expect from a top 3 or even top 5 coach with this kind of QB and this kind of roster.

    This is an elite post that will be bashed.


    Wrong! this post is complete garbage... a total misunderstanding of what is happening...


    LTH

    Feel free to articulate why you think the post is garbage. Or you can just say you disagree with it and carry on without the extras


    Mike McCarthy was fired after 2 losing seasons, where they were projected to win their division, the 2nd of which it could be argued that the team kinda gave up & quit on him.

    When that happens here, players quitting on the coaching staff, there will be changes on the coaching staff.
    Hockey Guy
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 630
    Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2017 9:03 am


Re: Fire Pete
Tue Dec 29, 2020 5:59 pm
  • Hockey Guy wrote:
    hawksincebirth wrote:
    LTH wrote:
    hawksincebirth wrote:This is an elite post that will be bashed.


    Wrong! this post is complete garbage... a total misunderstanding of what is happening...


    LTH

    Feel free to articulate why you think the post is garbage. Or you can just say you disagree with it and carry on without the extras


    Mike McCarthy was fired after 2 losing seasons, where they were projected to win their division, the 2nd of which it could be argued that the team kinda gave up & quit on him.

    When that happens here, players quitting on the coaching staff, there will be changes on the coaching staff.


    I totally agree with that...The expectation that the Seahawks should be in the SB every year and because they are not Pete Carroll should be fired is totally unrealistic and just ridiculous... going back to your point about players giving up, the exact opposite is happening in Carrolls case...The fact that Carroll turned around this D from the worst D in the NFL to one of the best D's in the NFL is because the players did not give up... (Excellent point by Hockey Guy)

    Right now the Seahawk organization is the best in football and that was created by Pete Carroll but the misunderstanding about Carroll is that people think great football is only won on the football field... that's not the case there are SOOOO many other factors that play into a winning football team just look at who is employed by the Seahawks... and people just don't see that side of things... what Carroll has done in seattle is create a dynasty that is alive and well... it would not surprise me to see two SB victory's by the time Carroll leaves...


    LTH
    LTH
    Silver Supporter
    Silver Supporter
     
    Posts: 1325
    Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:58 pm


Re: Fire Pete
Tue Dec 29, 2020 6:35 pm
  • hawksincebirth wrote:
    Ad Hawk wrote:
    hawksincebirth wrote:
    Ad Hawk wrote:
    No, there is no need or responsibility to appreciate ridiculous opinions. They are open to criticism and rejection. Not all opinions are equal in value, even in our politically correct world of everyone getting a trophy.

    Wanting PC replaced is a ridiculous opinion, and should be rejected outright.

    That's my opinion. :D


    It’s really not as ridiculous as you think.
    Wanting a serious contender is not too much to ask for with a top 3 qb. If we lose badly in the second round AGAIN you will keep hearing it


    And if we don't lose in the second round, and the team goes further, it would be nice to stop hearing it. But sadly, such noise will probably continue for who-knows-what reason next.

    I'm not as interested in the Super-Bowl goal on a weekly basis; I enjoy winning seasons because there's a whole season of fun football to watch. I certainly hope they make it to the final game of the post-season, and believe that out of the available coaches right now, PC gives this team the best chance. Firing him without a clearly better choice would be foolish and lacking foresight.


    I’m sure like myself plenty of posters will give Pete and co his credit. Im excited for the playoffs and hope for the best. As for the second part of your post I disagree. Nobody is saying fire Pete without a viable replacement. New young and talented coaches come into the league every year. Let’s hope for the best this year


    "Young" and "Talented" is rare. If you want to point to McVay as a model, he still hasn't won the trophy. We just beat their top-ranked defense and out-muscled their once-potent offense.

    How about Patricia? Bill B bloodline, after all. But no, he's not the right choice either, is he?

    Come up with something better than PC, someone who isn't a huge gamble, before crying for replacement. Otherwise it absolutely is foolish talk and evidence that you cannot back up your hope with anything substantial. It's why wise and successful Seahawk business owners have NOT done what you think they should do.
    Ad Hawk
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 2581
    Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:25 am


Re: Fire Pete
Tue Dec 29, 2020 8:06 pm
  • Ad Hawk wrote:
    hawksincebirth wrote:
    Ad Hawk wrote:
    hawksincebirth wrote:
    It’s really not as ridiculous as you think.
    Wanting a serious contender is not too much to ask for with a top 3 qb. If we lose badly in the second round AGAIN you will keep hearing it


    And if we don't lose in the second round, and the team goes further, it would be nice to stop hearing it. But sadly, such noise will probably continue for who-knows-what reason next.

    I'm not as interested in the Super-Bowl goal on a weekly basis; I enjoy winning seasons because there's a whole season of fun football to watch. I certainly hope they make it to the final game of the post-season, and believe that out of the available coaches right now, PC gives this team the best chance. Firing him without a clearly better choice would be foolish and lacking foresight.


    I’m sure like myself plenty of posters will give Pete and co his credit. Im excited for the playoffs and hope for the best. As for the second part of your post I disagree. Nobody is saying fire Pete without a viable replacement. New young and talented coaches come into the league every year. Let’s hope for the best this year


    "Young" and "Talented" is rare. If you want to point to McVay as a model, he still hasn't won the trophy. We just beat their top-ranked defense and out-muscled their once-potent offense.

    How about Patricia? Bill B bloodline, after all. But no, he's not the right choice either, is he?

    Come up with something better than PC, someone who isn't a huge gamble, before crying for replacement. Otherwise it absolutely is foolish talk and evidence that you cannot back up your hope with anything substantial. It's why wise and successful Seahawk business owners have NOT done what you think they should do.


    From a business perspective it would be stupid to get rid of Pete as their revenue was up 8% last year...

    LTH
    LTH
    Silver Supporter
    Silver Supporter
     
    Posts: 1325
    Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:58 pm


Re: Fire Pete
Tue Dec 29, 2020 8:23 pm
  • TwistedHusky wrote:Nunya,

    As you know, ratings of rosters are subjective.

    But I think you have seen them. Right now, we are #6 in the power rankings. Earlier in the year, we were even higher.

    Power rankings are a function of both record and perceived roster strength.

    We can probably find multiple roster rankings with us in ranges from 5-7 right now.

    (Depends if you think TB has a better roster than us. I don't. Certainly you could argue the Titans or Steelers might have a better roster, but most people wouldn't.)

    You can also juxtapose the roster rankings with the number of Pro Bowlers on our team. We have a fair amount, while not really displaying massive depth issues that would counter it.

    But again, however you rank the roster - it is going to be subjective by definition because there is no way to objectively rank it adequately.

    At the same time, playoff success is technically a subjective measurement. Because it depends on not just outcomes, but matchups and a number of tradeoffs. Generally you are going either going to be successful wide (consistency) or deep (how far you go in the playoffs when you make it). Pete is very consistent in making the playoffs. But so was Marty Schottenheimer. In truth, Pete would probably be the new Marty Schottenheimer but for the LOB (and the Wilson+Lynch combo).

    So is Pete a success in the playoffs? He is certainly a success at making them. In the past few years, he hasn't put up great results once he got there though.



    If our roster is 5-7th in rankings, why are we saying nfc championship or failure?

    Wouldn’t that be reserved for the top 4?
    Hawkpower
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 2821
    Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:53 am
    Location: Phoenix az


Re: Fire Pete
Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:48 pm
  • Agreed, Hawkpower. What we have here are unrealistic expectations, thus frequent disappointment.
    Ad Hawk
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 2581
    Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:25 am


Re: Fire Pete
Wed Dec 30, 2020 2:53 am
  • TwistedHusky wrote:Nunya,

    As you know, ratings of rosters are subjective.

    But I think you have seen them. Right now, we are #6 in the power rankings. Earlier in the year, we were even higher.

    Power rankings are a function of both record and perceived roster strength.

    We can probably find multiple roster rankings with us in ranges from 5-7 right now.

    (Depends if you think TB has a better roster than us. I don't. Certainly you could argue the Titans or Steelers might have a better roster, but most people wouldn't.)

    You can also juxtapose the roster rankings with the number of Pro Bowlers on our team. We have a fair amount, while not really displaying massive depth issues that would counter it.

    But again, however you rank the roster - it is going to be subjective by definition because there is no way to objectively rank it adequately.

    At the same time, playoff success is technically a subjective measurement. Because it depends on not just outcomes, but matchups and a number of tradeoffs. Generally you are going either going to be successful wide (consistency) or deep (how far you go in the playoffs when you make it). Pete is very consistent in making the playoffs. But so was Marty Schottenheimer. In truth, Pete would probably be the new Marty Schottenheimer but for the LOB (and the Wilson+Lynch combo).

    So is Pete a success in the playoffs? He is certainly a success at making them. In the past few years, he hasn't put up great results once he got there though.

    So you expect a top 5-7 ranked roster to get to finish in the top 4 (Conference Championship) of the league every year? If you expect us at 5-7 to get to the final 4, what happens to the other 6 teams that are supposed to get there also according to your expectations? Are those teams different? 3 of them can't make it. Are they underperforming? How is making it the second round most years in the playoffs not performing to the expected level of a top 5-7 roster? Rankings are $h!t as you probably know, but I could see your argument if we had a top 2-3 roster every year, but even you don't think our roster is there.
    OrangeGravy
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 564
    Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2016 5:47 pm


Re: Fire Pete
Wed Dec 30, 2020 2:59 am
  • hawksincebirth wrote:
    Ad Hawk wrote:
    hawksincebirth wrote:
    Ad Hawk wrote:
    No, there is no need or responsibility to appreciate ridiculous opinions. They are open to criticism and rejection. Not all opinions are equal in value, even in our politically correct world of everyone getting a trophy.

    Wanting PC replaced is a ridiculous opinion, and should be rejected outright.

    That's my opinion. :D


    It’s really not as ridiculous as you think.
    Wanting a serious contender is not too much to ask for with a top 3 qb. If we lose badly in the second round AGAIN you will keep hearing it


    And if we don't lose in the second round, and the team goes further, it would be nice to stop hearing it. But sadly, such noise will probably continue for who-knows-what reason next.

    I'm not as interested in the Super-Bowl goal on a weekly basis; I enjoy winning seasons because there's a whole season of fun football to watch. I certainly hope they make it to the final game of the post-season, and believe that out of the available coaches right now, PC gives this team the best chance. Firing him without a clearly better choice would be foolish and lacking foresight.


    I’m sure like myself plenty of posters will give Pete and co his credit. Im excited for the playoffs and hope for the best. As for the second part of your post I disagree. Nobody is saying fire Pete without a viable replacement. New young and talented coaches come into the league every year. Let’s hope for the best this year

    What have any of those new and talented coaches done since coming into the league that Seattle hasn't done and continues to do?
    OrangeGravy
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 564
    Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2016 5:47 pm


Re: Fire Pete
Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:44 am
  • TwistedHusky wrote:-snip-
    On the other points you questioned?

    Let's be clear. Yes all teams grow/build/improve. But Pete is an expert program builder. There is a difference.

    He is adept at building and developing key contributors IN season. That means many things but primarily it means that the roster on Day 1 will significantly improve by end of season. It also means that lower level draft picks have a much higher % chance of being significant contributors than most teams usually realize at those levels. Both are exceptional, both are benefits that Pete brings, and not sure why or how you would pretend this is normal when it isn't.

    Sure it happens to all teams. But not with the degree and consistency Pete delivers. It is almost assured depth multiplier.

    With Pete, you are going to be better at the end of the year in key areas that you were not great at in the earlier games. He also is going to find some unheralded player and turn him into an exceptional contributor yearly.

    -snip-


    Some terrific points here! So many people fail to recognize Pete's program-building ability.

    I do think we have a special group this year, and have a chance for a deep playoff run. We've hit on some draft choices, (Brooks, Lewis, Robinson, Swain, Dallas, and probably Cody Parkinson too, and we hope D. Taylor, in time) and we've had some terrific key acquisitions (Adams, Dunlap, Hyde, Mayowa, Shell, Olsen, DJ Reed, others), had some players take a big step forward (DK, Pocic, Collier), had a lot of cheap players outperform their contracts (Poona, Dissly, DJReed the rooks), others play up to their contracts (Hollister, Russell, KJ, Bobby, JReed, DMoore, Quill Griffin, QDiggs, and nearly everyone else) and Jamal Adams arguably outperforming his contract.

    We have players getting healthy for the playoffs (Penny), rooks continuing to improve as the season goes along (Brooks!!, Swain, Lewis, Robinson, and more) and our overall team health is at least average. Worst injury loss was probably losing Bruce Irvin to an ACL, probably followed by that CB we traded for from WFT who is now on IR. Yeah Dunbar. Hard to recall his name he's done so little for us.

    With the vast improvement from the defense the last few weeks, and overall team chemistry and upward trajectory, Pete has a legit shot to take this team to the Super Bowl again. I'd say best overall roster we've had at this point since the 2014 season. This roster has the potential to mask Pete's massive playoff coaching deficiencies ;) like the team did in 2013 and 2014.

    Now it's pretty much up to Pete and coordinators KNJ and Schotty, to come up with good game plans for our opponents, make good adjustments in-game, and up to Russell to be on his game. If all that happens, we have a legit shot to beat anyone and everyone in the playoffs.

    I'm leaning towards delaying Pete's firing for at least 2 more weeks to see if the team will rally around him, play hard for him, and at least show some promise for next season. ;)
    olyfan63
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 3847
    Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:03 am


Re: Fire Pete
Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:24 am
  • LTH wrote:I totally agree with that...The expectation that the Seahawks should be in the SB every year and because they are not Pete Carroll should be fired is totally unrealistic and just ridiculous... going back to your point about players giving up, the exact opposite is happening in Carrolls case...The fact that Carroll turned around this D from the worst D in the NFL to one of the best D's in the NFL is because the players did not give up... (Excellent point by Hockey Guy)

    Right now the Seahawk organization is the best in football and that was created by Pete Carroll but the misunderstanding about Carroll is that people think great football is only won on the football field... that's not the case there are SOOOO many other factors that play into a winning football team just look at who is employed by the Seahawks... and people just don't see that side of things... what Carroll has done in seattle is create a dynasty that is alive and well... it would not surprise me to see two SB victory's by the time Carroll leaves...


    LTH


    Players giving up is the exact opposite in Carrolls case? Seems like a lot of HOF caliber players gave up on Pete from the Super Bowl teams.

    Create a dynasty in Seattle? He also squandered one. He called or allowed a play in the Super Bowl that was so legendarily bad that the team fell apart. He then refused to practice what he preached and never held anybody accountable for it. He went as far as to allow his OC to throw players under the bus. Its no wonder players quit buying into the Rah Rah garbage Pete was promoting because its all a farce.

    People are so far ahead of themselves right now because of the division title that they cant see that this is just another typical season for the Hawks. That first or second round playoff exit is right around the corner. Two more SB victories in the Carroll era? Lol. I'd settle for more than two playoff wins in a season before counting those chickens.
    pittpnthrs
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 1892
    Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 11:19 am


Re: Fire Pete
Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:26 am
  • Damn man, breathe in. You can't honestly be this doom and gloom. You can't even enjoy a division title? Not even a little bit? And why do you insist on raining on someone else's parade? God forbid someone else enjoys winning. Just because YOU expect the worst, doesn't mean you have to blast those who actually are enjoying this.
    Doesn't make you a bigger fan or them a bigger fan, but it also doesn't make them clueless or stupid.
    But, I seem to remember a comment that the Hawks never win clinching games. Which they just did, yet again.
    SoulfishHawk
    NET Pro Bowler
     
    Posts: 17124
    Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:59 am
    Location: Sammamish, WA


Re: Fire Pete
Wed Dec 30, 2020 8:03 am
  • SoulfishHawk wrote:Damn man, breathe in. You can't honestly be this doom and gloom. You can't even enjoy a division title? Not even a little bit? And why do you insist on raining on someone else's parade? God forbid someone else enjoys winning. Just because YOU expect the worst, doesn't mean you have to blast those who actually are enjoying this.
    Doesn't make you a bigger fan or them a bigger fan, but it also doesn't make them clueless or stupid.
    But, I seem to remember a comment that the Hawks never win clinching games. Which they just did, yet again.


    The division title is nice. Makes for a great Tshirt. Unfortunately it doesnt mean much because the seeding isnt changing. I'm not blasting anybody. I just feel what was said was wrong. Facts pretty much back me up. I just refuse to be fooled by this team anymore. Seems like a typical Seahawk season to me,,,,,get the chipper fans hopes up, bomb in the playoffs, rinse and re-pete. The Hawks go into 1st or 2nd round of playoffs, get rocked in the first half due to horrific gameday coaching, they make a comeback in the 2nd half because the other team lets up, fans shout how close the Hawks were and are happy and content they even made the playoffs because they sucked 30 years ago and are convinced they will get over the hump next season. Everything is fine and dandy. I expect the worst and if anything more happens, its a shock. Its a win, win situation for all.
    pittpnthrs
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 1892
    Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 11:19 am


Re: Fire Pete
Wed Dec 30, 2020 8:21 am
  • Imagine that.

    pittpnthrs, 1 of the posters who is on record as saying he wants PC fired & doesn't even care if the move works out he's just ready for a change & wants to see if he's right, has shown up to regale us with his wisdom in a mock "Fire Pete" thread.
    Hockey Guy
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 630
    Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2017 9:03 am


Re: Fire Pete
Wed Dec 30, 2020 8:50 am
  • pittpnthrs wrote:
    SoulfishHawk wrote:Damn man, breathe in. You can't honestly be this doom and gloom. You can't even enjoy a division title? Not even a little bit? And why do you insist on raining on someone else's parade? God forbid someone else enjoys winning. Just because YOU expect the worst, doesn't mean you have to blast those who actually are enjoying this.
    Doesn't make you a bigger fan or them a bigger fan, but it also doesn't make them clueless or stupid.
    But, I seem to remember a comment that the Hawks never win clinching games. Which they just did, yet again.


    The division title is nice. Makes for a great Tshirt. Unfortunately it doesnt mean much because the seeding isnt changing. I'm not blasting anybody. I just feel what was said was wrong. Facts pretty much back me up. I just refuse to be fooled by this team anymore. Seems like a typical Seahawk season to me,,,,,get the chipper fans hopes up, bomb in the playoffs, rinse and re-pete. The Hawks go into 1st or 2nd round of playoffs, get rocked in the first half due to horrific gameday coaching, they make a comeback in the 2nd half because the other team lets up, fans shout how close the Hawks were and are happy and content they even made the playoffs because they sucked 30 years ago and are convinced they will get over the hump next season. Everything is fine and dandy. I expect the worst and if anything more happens, its a shock. Its a win, win situation for all.

    Need a WAAAAAMBULANCE?
    If you're bummed out with the Seahawks OFTEN being in the mix, then why even bother watching?
    I guess the old saying must be true -> "Misery Loves Company" :lol:
    scutterhawk
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 7525
    Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2010 9:48 pm


Re: Fire Pete
Wed Dec 30, 2020 9:00 am
  • The entire issue with Pete hinges on expectations, which really should be another thread. His strengths build these amazing teams and then his weaknesses hold them back.

    At the start of the year, SI had this roster ranked #7-8. We then had some injuries, but offset them with some trades. The addition of Carlos, Reed, Neal and the blossoming of our LB rookie should kick us into 5-7 just from that ranking. I don't want to post the multiple #5-7 rankings for this roster because then it becomes a 'well that source is not valid' or 'I don't trust those rankings argument' that turns into an insane circle.

    But even though there are literally hundreds of roster rankings for the Seahawks (due to fantasy football, media, and betting)...let's use the ranking Nunya trusts, which was #15.

    Because I doubt anyone would rank this roster below 10 now. That is clearly a function of Pete+JS.

    Pass rushing was a weakness. Pete+JS fixed it. Now it is a strength. Corner was a weakness. Now it is at least solid.

    The point I was making is that Pete underperforms a #5 roster once he builds it BUT HE DOES BUILD IT. It is still not surprising that he took a #10-15 roster and turned it into a #5-7. But without him, this would be #12-15, not #5. (Yes Nunyua, All coaches improve rosters to some extent. No other coach does it nearly as well in season. Not even close.)

    The problems with Pete are well documented. And it holds the team back. But we are not fixing them. And those problems that hold the team back are offset by specific strengths in team-building/program building that improve the team to set those expectations so high in the first place.

    Now, when we hit the playoffs - Pete tends to then perform like a #15 roster not a #5. I never said that conference championships should be the measuring stick. But certainly, in my opinion, with an elite QB you SHOULD at least win a single division playoff game in 5 years. We haven't. To offset, Pete avoids the curse that high costs of elite QBs create - missing playoff games.

    So knowing Pete is likely not going to win divisional playoff games and for the most part, won't succeed in the playoffs (due to issues already covered ad nauseum), is looking great in the regular season enough for you?

    IF not, you are betting Wilson could be better under another coach. No certainty after what this year showed, but certainly a possibility given the advantages great QBs get in the playoffs.

    If you fire Pete, you have to be prepared to take a dip in roster quality for the potential chance that your elite QB could be unleashed with better gameday coaching, better offense, and likely a better defense (still not sold on Norton). Because the high floor/low ceiling approach Pete takes GENERALLY WORKS IN THE REGULAR SEASON AND FAILS IN THE PLAYOFFS.* (At least without the LOB it does.)




    * It should be noted that we did change. In our last game, we built on the lead - we did not just sit on it. That is somewhat new. (Hopefully not an outlier) The tendency not to put our foot on the gas until we feel we need it is a huge reason we tend to get blown out and embarrassed by halftime the moment we enter a division playoff game since our SB loss.
    TwistedHusky
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 4799
    Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2013 7:48 pm


Re: Fire Pete
Wed Dec 30, 2020 9:02 am
  • Damn, literally admitting you expect the worst.
    That's actually kind of sad. But hey, do you. I'm sure no matter what they accomplish, you'll be right back here to downplay it and make everyone sounds stupid for actually believing in the team.
    What a strange mentality to go about sports and/or life. I'll never understand it, but oh well.

    Go Hawks
    11-4
    Division Champs
    5-5
    Fire Pete and John
    trade Wags
    Russ Sucks
    Hawks can't beat the Rams
    Washington is gonna' sack Russ all day long
    Historically Bad Defense
    Everything sucks
    Last edited by SoulfishHawk on Wed Dec 30, 2020 9:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
    SoulfishHawk
    NET Pro Bowler
     
    Posts: 17124
    Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:59 am
    Location: Sammamish, WA


Re: Fire Pete
Wed Dec 30, 2020 9:05 am
  • pittpnthrs wrote:
    SoulfishHawk wrote:Damn man, breathe in. You can't honestly be this doom and gloom. You can't even enjoy a division title? Not even a little bit? And why do you insist on raining on someone else's parade? God forbid someone else enjoys winning. Just because YOU expect the worst, doesn't mean you have to blast those who actually are enjoying this.
    Doesn't make you a bigger fan or them a bigger fan, but it also doesn't make them clueless or stupid.
    But, I seem to remember a comment that the Hawks never win clinching games. Which they just did, yet again.


    The division title is nice. Makes for a great Tshirt. Unfortunately it doesnt mean much because the seeding isnt changing. I'm not blasting anybody. I just feel what was said was wrong. Facts pretty much back me up. I just refuse to be fooled by this team anymore. Seems like a typical Seahawk season to me,,,,,get the chipper fans hopes up, bomb in the playoffs, rinse and re-pete. The Hawks go into 1st or 2nd round of playoffs, get rocked in the first half due to horrific gameday coaching, they make a comeback in the 2nd half because the other team lets up, fans shout how close the Hawks were and are happy and content they even made the playoffs because they sucked 30 years ago and are convinced they will get over the hump next season. Everything is fine and dandy. I expect the worst and if anything more happens, its a shock. Its a win, win situation for all.


    The issue with this logic is how much it relies on your hypocrisy. I agree with the sentiment that the division title should be phase 1 of an accomplished season.

    However, imagine your posts on here if the team had lost? You expected a lost. You almost assured one. Instead, the team wins, outplays their nemesis rather emphatically, and your post is to have a run at the people you challenged before the game?

    "There's no way Pete can beat the Rams."

    Seahawks win 20-9

    "But.. there's now way they will win in the playoffs."

    Come on, man.
    Uncle Si
    * NET Hottie *
     
    Posts: 20596
    Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2007 9:34 am


Re: Fire Pete
Wed Dec 30, 2020 9:07 am
  • And not ONE person is saying that we are satisfied with just winning the division. Not ONE. It's the first step in many. But what do I know, I bought the t-shirt, so I'm clearly satisfied now and don't care if they win the playoffs :?
    If people are gonna' spout out claims like they are somehow etched in stone FACTS, they should also be ready for some blowback when they are WRONG.
    SoulfishHawk
    NET Pro Bowler
     
    Posts: 17124
    Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:59 am
    Location: Sammamish, WA


Re: Fire Pete
Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:00 am
  • Look ppl are going to be sad when pete is gone and russ is gone and we are 6 and 10.


    Enjoy this.
    Shanegotyou11
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 3923
    Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:08 pm


Re: Fire Pete
Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:05 am
  • pittpnthrs wrote:
    SoulfishHawk wrote:Damn man, breathe in. You can't honestly be this doom and gloom. You can't even enjoy a division title? Not even a little bit? And why do you insist on raining on someone else's parade? God forbid someone else enjoys winning. Just because YOU expect the worst, doesn't mean you have to blast those who actually are enjoying this.
    Doesn't make you a bigger fan or them a bigger fan, but it also doesn't make them clueless or stupid.
    But, I seem to remember a comment that the Hawks never win clinching games. Which they just did, yet again.


    The division title is nice. Makes for a great Tshirt. Unfortunately it doesnt mean much because the seeding isnt changing. I'm not blasting anybody. I just feel what was said was wrong. Facts pretty much back me up. I just refuse to be fooled by this team anymore. Seems like a typical Seahawk season to me,,,,,get the chipper fans hopes up, bomb in the playoffs, rinse and re-pete. The Hawks go into 1st or 2nd round of playoffs, get rocked in the first half due to horrific gameday coaching, they make a comeback in the 2nd half because the other team lets up, fans shout how close the Hawks were and are happy and content they even made the playoffs because they sucked 30 years ago and are convinced they will get over the hump next season. Everything is fine and dandy. I expect the worst and if anything more happens, its a shock. Its a win, win situation for all.


    Wow.
    You know, I used to think this way not too long ago. I would go to the casino, or any gambling platform i could sink my teeth into, and bet money against the Hawks. Lots of money. I nearly lost everything.
    Key word "nearly." Because what I lost, the team won. While i was filing for chapter 7, the Seahawks were hoisting the Lombardi.

    You're welcome.

    But then something changed. I had an epiphany, if you will. What is the use in being so pesimistic all the time? My friends couldn't stand to be around me, because I was such a negative Nancy.
    So i tried to be positive. About anything. I tried to be positive about life, my finances, my family, but above all else, the Seahawks. And look at where that positivity has gotten us. A division title.

    You're welcome.

    So I leave you with this. I urge you to switch from negativity to positivity. You'll notice that the wins taste sweeter, the losses only feel like happy little accidents.
    Stay positive!
    Jerhawk
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 3757
    Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:39 am
    Location: Spokane, WA


Re: Fire Pete
Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:14 am
  • scutterhawk wrote:Need a WAAAAAMBULANCE?
    If you're bummed out with the Seahawks OFTEN being in the mix, then why even bother watching?
    I guess the old saying must be true -> "Misery Loves Company" :lol:


    Its nothing more than entertainment. I just dont have high expectations due to a repeating pattern of results.
    pittpnthrs
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 1892
    Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 11:19 am


Re: Fire Pete
Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:28 am
  • Uncle Si wrote:The issue with this logic is how much it relies on your hypocrisy. I agree with the sentiment that the division title should be phase 1 of an accomplished season.

    However, imagine your posts on here if the team had lost? You expected a lost. You almost assured one. Instead, the team wins, outplays their nemesis rather emphatically, and your post is to have a run at the people you challenged before the game?

    "There's no way Pete can beat the Rams."

    Seahawks win 20-9

    "But.. there's now way they will win in the playoffs."

    Come on, man.


    I admit, I was shocked the Hawks beat the Rams, but that didnt change how I feel about the team. If Seattle makes it further than the second round of the playoffs, I promise I will eat more crow than anybody on this board. I just cant see it happening though. Again, I see Carroll blowing it with horrible game day coaching. Its just happened so often the past 4 or 5 years, that its more probable than not.
    pittpnthrs
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 1892
    Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 11:19 am


Re: Fire Pete
Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:35 am
  • Jerhawk wrote:
    Wow.
    You know, I used to think this way not too long ago. I would go to the casino, or any gambling platform i could sink my teeth into, and bet money against the Hawks. Lots of money. I nearly lost everything.
    Key word "nearly." Because what I lost, the team won. While i was filing for chapter 7, the Seahawks were hoisting the Lombardi.

    You're welcome.

    But then something changed. I had an epiphany, if you will. What is the use in being so pesimistic all the time? My friends couldn't stand to be around me, because I was such a negative Nancy.
    So i tried to be positive. About anything. I tried to be positive about life, my finances, my family, but above all else, the Seahawks. And look at where that positivity has gotten us. A division title.

    You're welcome.

    So I leave you with this. I urge you to switch from negativity to positivity. You'll notice that the wins taste sweeter, the losses only feel like happy little accidents.
    Stay positive!


    Was always a glass half empty person. Expect the worse and you're prepared for it. Anything better than that is a positive.

    Trust me, I envy the people around here that see a few more Super Bowls in the Carroll era. I just cant see that in my wildest dreams. Thats why i'm all for a coaching change while Russ is still here and guarantees 10 or better wins a season. Team has been stagnant in the playoffs, let somebody else have a try with an elite QB.
    pittpnthrs
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 1892
    Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 11:19 am


Re: Fire Pete
Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:56 am
  • Twisted: "Pete has coached with a high floor, low ceiling approach that works."

    The thing that caught my eye about this 'revelation' is how it precisely mirrors Russ's top talking point, "never too high, never too low" outlook as his key to success.

    pit obviously values consistency too, but eliminates never too low from his equation.
    Appyhawk
    Silver Supporter
    Silver Supporter
     
    Posts: 2013
    Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:43 pm
    Location: Ranch in Flint Hills of Kansas, formerly NW Montana.


Re: Fire Pete
Wed Dec 30, 2020 11:24 am
  • TwistedHusky wrote:The entire issue with Pete hinges on expectations, which really should be another thread. His strengths build these amazing teams and then his weaknesses hold them back.

    .


    That bolded part says everything i've been trying to say. That belongs on a Tshirt.

    Lets hope for the best. Go Hawks.
    pittpnthrs
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 1892
    Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 11:19 am


Re: Fire Pete
Wed Dec 30, 2020 11:34 am
  • Who would you rather have as Seahawks head coach?

    We have to remember that Carroll also has brought a culture to this franchise. The grass isn't always greener.
    If we move on from Pete for Bienemy, what if he totally fails and this all comes crashing down? What if Russell cant handle the tough coaching of Harbaugh. What if Nick Saban wears down all of our guys and fails? There's just to many what ifs.
    At least Pete gets the team into the tournament. He's proven he can get the team to the top.
    Jerhawk
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 3757
    Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:39 am
    Location: Spokane, WA


Re: Fire Pete
Wed Dec 30, 2020 11:45 am
  • TwistedHusky wrote:The entire issue with Pete hinges on expectations, which really should be another thread. His strengths build these amazing teams and then his weaknesses hold them back.

    At the start of the year, SI had this roster ranked #7-8. We then had some injuries, but offset them with some trades. The addition of Carlos, Reed, Neal and the blossoming of our LB rookie should kick us into 5-7 just from that ranking. I don't want to post the multiple #5-7 rankings for this roster because then it becomes a 'well that source is not valid' or 'I don't trust those rankings argument' that turns into an insane circle.


    Nice cop-out. So you don't want to provide proof that your claim is correct and that the Seahawks roster ranking is what you claim (even though your whole argument is based on your roster ranking claim) because you don't want to argue over the source???? Give me a break. We can disagree on how the source rated the rosters, but that is not what we are discussing. Post the SI ratings you claim exist. ESPN? Any source?? My Google Fu must be lacking. I can not find any pre-season or mid-season roster ranking from SI. The only pertinent article I can find is gushing over the Raven's roster.

    But even though there are literally hundreds of roster rankings for the Seahawks (due to fantasy football, media, and betting)...let's use the ranking Nunya trusts, which was #15.


    Provide them.

    Because I doubt anyone would rank this roster below 10 now. That is clearly a function of Pete+JS.


    So, no proof...just your own doubts. Got it.

    Pass rushing was a weakness. Pete+JS fixed it. Now it is a strength. Corner was a weakness. Now it is at least solid.

    The point I was making is that Pete underperforms a #5 roster once he builds it BUT HE DOES BUILD IT. It is still not surprising that he took a #10-15 roster and turned it into a #5-7. But without him, this would be #12-15, not #5. (Yes Nunyua, All coaches improve rosters to some extent. No other coach does it nearly as well in season. Not even close.)


    Still have not proven the roster was rated at #10-#15 (just the proof I provided showing ranked at #15). Still no proof it is now ranked #5-7.

    The problems with Pete are well documented. And it holds the team back. But we are not fixing them. And those problems that hold the team back are offset by specific strengths in team-building/program building that improve the team to set those expectations so high in the first place.


    Please provide this "well documented" evidence. So far, all we have is your word....which does not cut it.

    Now, when we hit the playoffs - Pete tends to then perform like a #15 roster not a #5. I never said that conference championships should be the measuring stick. But certainly, in my opinion, with an elite QB you SHOULD at least win a single division playoff game in 5 years. We haven't. To offset, Pete avoids the curse that high costs of elite QBs create - missing playoff games.


    Still haven't proved it is a #5 roster. But even so, wouldn't one expect the ranked #1-4 roster to make it to the Conference games and and a #5 ranked roster to lose in the Divisional round? That is....if roster ranking meant a damn thing. Sounds to me like you demand that PC over-achieve.

    Even so, the idea of setting expectations based on arbitrary roster ranking has got to be the dumbest idea I have ever heard.

    So knowing Pete is likely not going to win divisional playoff games and for the most part, won't succeed in the playoffs (due to issues already covered ad nauseum), is looking great in the regular season enough for you?


    So, based on YOUR logic, if a coach has not recently taken a team to the Conference game, chances are that they will not ever do it???? It is a damn good thing that Andy Reed was never privy to your jewel of wisdom. Before 2018 he hadn't made it to a Conference game in 10 years and had never been in the SB in his 20 years of coaching. I'm surprised he is still coaching based on your logic. He should have given up years ago....especially with his lousy .461 playoff win percentage prior to his SB run.

    IF not, you are betting Wilson could be better under another coach. No certainty after what this year showed, but certainly a possibility given the advantages great QBs get in the playoffs.


    Sure, Wilson could be better under a different offensive scheme....or he could be worse.....or he could still be the same. That is something RW will need to decide. There is nothing to indicate that RW is not happy with PC or Seattle and any claim that he is is nothing more than speculation.

    If you fire Pete, you have to be prepared to take a dip in roster quality for the potential chance that your elite QB could be unleashed with better gameday coaching, better offense, and likely a better defense (still not sold on Norton). Because the high floor/low ceiling approach Pete takes GENERALLY WORKS IN THE REGULAR SEASON AND FAILS IN THE PLAYOFFS.* (At least without the LOB it does.)


    This has got to be the largest pile of bulvine excrement I have seen posted in a while.

    * It should be noted that we did change. In our last game, we built on the lead - we did not just sit on it. That is somewhat new. (Hopefully not an outlier) The tendency not to put our foot on the gas until we feel we need it is a huge reason we tend to get blown out and embarrassed by halftime the moment we enter a division playoff game since our SB loss.


    Or it could be that we are playing other Professional football teams that are doing everything they can to prevent us from putting our foot on the gas. Just because a teams wants to do something, that does not mean they will be successful.
    Nunya
    NET Rookie
     
    Posts: 212
    Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:20 am


Re: Fire Pete
Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:16 pm
  • pittpnthrs wrote:I admit, I was shocked the Hawks beat the Rams, but that didnt change how I feel about the team. If Seattle makes it further than the second round of the playoffs, I promise I will eat more crow than anybody on this board. I just cant see it happening though. Again, I see Carroll blowing it with horrible game day coaching. Its just happened so often the past 4 or 5 years, that its more probable than not.


    Dude, you are the one that guaranteed that the Seahawks would NEVER beat the Rams. Nobody takes any of your "guarantees" serious anymore (if they ever did). I also doubt you will "eat crow". You will just make excuses for their wins and claim they were flukes.
    Nunya
    NET Rookie
     
    Posts: 212
    Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:20 am


Re: Fire Pete
Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:28 pm
  • Nunya,

    The moment I put the multiple roster rankings up, the entire thread devolves into you arguing that this source isn't good for X reason, or DVOA not counting, or this isn't applicable, or whatever.

    So I used your source. Then you argued against your own source.

    You keep setting up weird strawman arguments and knocking them down. Not sure what you are arguing at this point or if you even know.

    I appreciate the discourse. You are just veering all over the place and diving deep into minor points that aren't really relevant to the key of the discussion.

    So let's simplify.

    Does Carroll improve the roster? Obviously yes.

    Is this a key strength of his that most coaches cannot consistently deliver like results on? Yes.

    If you want to argue that then Carroll's faults are not offset by these strengths because his faults don't hold us back? Ok....years of watching him seems to counter that but whatever.

    My argument was you cannot get rid of Pete for not getting the results that a #5 roster brings, because without Pete the roster is not #5. What is yours?

    My second argument is that with Pete, we will play like the crappier roster we were (not #5) because his process works in the regular season but falls apart when facing better teams/coaches in the playoffs.

    Is that what you are arguing against?






    By the way, simple Google gets you this quote:
    "The Seattle Seahawks are ranked No. 7 in ESPN's Football Power Index ahead of the 2020 NFL season."

    Or go to Lineups.com. Or betting sites. fantasy football ranking sites. Madden. .....the list is longer than some of my posts.
    TwistedHusky
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 4799
    Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2013 7:48 pm


Re: Fire Pete
Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:59 pm
  • Nunya wrote:
    pittpnthrs wrote:I admit, I was shocked the Hawks beat the Rams, but that didnt change how I feel about the team. If Seattle makes it further than the second round of the playoffs, I promise I will eat more crow than anybody on this board. I just cant see it happening though. Again, I see Carroll blowing it with horrible game day coaching. Its just happened so often the past 4 or 5 years, that its more probable than not.


    Dude, you are the one that guaranteed that the Seahawks would NEVER beat the Rams. Nobody takes any of your "guarantees" serious anymore (if they ever did). I also doubt you will "eat crow". You will just make excuses for their wins and claim they were flukes.


    He shouldn't be taken seriously at all.

    He seriously posted last January that he just wanted PC fired & didn't even care if the move worked out. He was just ready for a change & wanted to see if he was right as have some others.
    Hockey Guy
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 630
    Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2017 9:03 am


Re: Fire Pete
Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:22 pm
  • Except that made complete sense last January.

    Wilson was not being used well. It looked for all the world that he would have done better under an offensive coach, and we were already losing defensive effectiveness. Betting on Wilson was a reasonable risk and betting on Wilson would have meant moving away from Pete.

    This year somewhat indicated that the 'Let Wilson carry the team like Aaron Rodgers did" approach was not going to work. He had the chance instead of better results, they got worse.

    But pretending that there was not a reasonable hint that this team would be better focusing more on what Wilson did well and leveraging it? That isn't all honest.

    There were plenty of reasons that looking at another coach was a reasonable gamble, because back then,Pete was not open to giving Wilson the keys to this team. In hindsight, maybe Pete was right - but last January betting on Wilson vs betting on Pete was not an insane stance.
    TwistedHusky
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 4799
    Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2013 7:48 pm


Re: Fire Pete
Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:37 pm
  • Nunya wrote:
    pittpnthrs wrote:I admit, I was shocked the Hawks beat the Rams, but that didnt change how I feel about the team. If Seattle makes it further than the second round of the playoffs, I promise I will eat more crow than anybody on this board. I just cant see it happening though. Again, I see Carroll blowing it with horrible game day coaching. Its just happened so often the past 4 or 5 years, that its more probable than not.


    Dude, you are the one that guaranteed that the Seahawks would NEVER beat the Rams. Nobody takes any of your "guarantees" serious anymore (if they ever did). I also doubt you will "eat crow". You will just make excuses for their wins and claim they were flukes.


    Can you point out where I guaranteed the Rams would win? I picked them to win because Seattle struggles in must win games, but I never guaranteed it.
    Last edited by pittpnthrs on Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
    pittpnthrs
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 1892
    Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 11:19 am


Re: Fire Pete
Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:47 pm
  • Hockey Guy wrote: He shouldn't be taken seriously at all.

    He seriously posted last January that he just wanted PC fired & didn't even care if the move worked out. He was just ready for a change & wanted to see if he was right as have some others.


    I still feel that way. If Seattle gets bounced again in the early rounds of the playoffs, would I be so insane to want those changes? That will make 6 straight years of no improvements and being stagnant when the playoffs roll around. Sure, the team could take a step or few backwards, but it could also thrive. I'm willing to take that chance rather than seeing the team doing the same thing year after year after year. Its not about being wrong or right.
    Last edited by pittpnthrs on Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
    pittpnthrs
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 1892
    Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 11:19 am


PreviousNext


It is currently Mon Mar 01, 2021 4:01 pm

Please REGISTER to become a member

Return to [ SEATTLE SEAHAWKS FOOTBALL ]




Information
  • Who is online