Jody Allen needs to have a come to Jesus with Pete

Spin Doctor

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Were our Superbowl appearances (and dominating win) due to superior coordinator performance?

What about his National Championships at USC?

I agree with you about his strengths, but I think some of the rest of that is affected by recency bias.

At the end of the day, talent is king. Makes x's and 0's look so much better haha :)
Pete Carroll defined the defensive meta when he came from the USC. Dan Quinn in particular has a very good track record as DC outside the Hawks. Carroll utilized players that people were overlooking in response to the changing landscape of offenses. He was ahead of the curve coming from USC.

Since the playoff game in Atlanta game in 2016 where Shanahan and company destroyed the Seahawks defense, we've had issues. Teams adapted, Pete didn't until this year. The Seahawks used more base defense than any other team for example. Since then Carroll has been playing catch-up on defense. Over the years we've seen some nutty things like base defenses in response to sets it shouldn't be used, D-lineman being dropped into coverage. Hiring of Norton Jr, a guy that failed into his position here.

Carroll was a great defensive mind, but I think he's going the way of Holmgren. One of the reasons that Holmgren gave up coaching because he said he felt he no longer could keep up with the game. Holmgren's WCO was very old school and he recognized that.
 

Hawkpower

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Pete Carroll defined the defensive meta when he came from the USC. Dan Quinn in particular has a very good track record as DC outside the Hawks. Carroll utilized players that people were overlooking in response to the changing landscape of offenses. He was ahead of the curve coming from USC.

Since the playoff game in Atlanta game in 2016 where Shanahan and company destroyed the Seahawks defense, we've had issues. Teams adapted, Pete didn't until this year. The Seahawks used more base defense than any other team for example. Since then Carroll has been playing catch-up on defense. Over the years we've seen some nutty things like base defenses in response to sets it shouldn't be used, D-lineman being dropped into coverage. Hiring of Norton Jr, a guy that failed into his position here.

Carroll was a great defensive mind, but I think he's going the way of Holmgren. One of the reasons that Holmgren gave up coaching because he said he felt he no longer could keep up with the game. Holmgren's WCO was very old school and he recognized that.

Possibly
Although I will say, the "game passing you by" while fun to say, may be a myth. Football is football, and certain elements of it apply universally regardless of the year

Also interesting to note that stalwarts of the LOB also started to peel away around that time.
Easy to potentially attribute loss of production on that side of the ball to the loss of very key players as well
Guys like Sherman, Earl, Bobby, Bennett, Kam and crew can make anyone look genius. Guys like Barton, et all can make anyone look like a dino haha

The truth probably lies in between in all honesty
 

OrangeGravy

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Well if you didn't think they were going to win it all, why did you say the season wasn't much of a success since we didn't? You claimed that was the only thing that should make us satisfied

Seems to me if you were expecting 4 wins, making the playoffs should have you somewhat pleased.

Right?
Don't waste your breath. The people that have wanted Pete gone for years are always gonna see things through the "season would've been better without Pete" lens. Its a constantly moving goal that will always be out of reach. If we would've won yesterday and lost next week they'd be complaining that any other coach would've made the NFC Championship. It's not even worth debating anymore. Nothing short of winning the SB will change their minds and even then, they'll fall right back into the same fire Pete mode when we don't re-Pete!
 

OrangeGravy

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Sorry your so confused, don't know how to help at this point. I know you think your being clever twisting my words, but you're actually coming across as nitpicking and arriving at silly conclusions. Either way I couldn't care less your opinion of me or my takes. MmmmK. 👋
Your words don't need any twisting. You're handling that quite well. Under your approach 31 teams would fire their coach every season
 

Nunya

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...... Im so tired of the its everybody but him because he won 1 superbowl almost a damn decade ago......
And how many Super bowl wins did we have in the 34 years before PC arrived in Seattle? In fact how many Super bowl appearances did we have in those 34 years? That would be 1 appearance and no wins.

Did you know that PC has taken the Seahawks to more post season games than ALL of the Seahawk coaches before him combined? Even though some people want to claim PC can't win playoff games, he has won more playoff games with the Seahawks than were won 34 years before him.

It seems like some people have forgotten our past. They seem to now be use to winning. They seem to forget that it was PC that brought that feeling of winning to Seattle. Winning in this league is very difficult. 12 teams have never won the super bowl...and 4 of those teams have never even been to the superbowl.

I think those that believe this team would find more success without PC are delusional and have some very unrealistic expectations.
 

Spin Doctor

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And how many Super bowl wins did we have in the 34 years before PC arrived in Seattle? In fact how many Super bowl appearances did we have in those 34 years? That would be 1 appearance and no wins.

Did you know that PC has taken the Seahawks to more post season games than ALL of the Seahawk coaches before him combined? Even though some people want to claim PC can't win playoff games, he has won more playoff games with the Seahawks than were won 34 years before him.

It seems like some people have forgotten our past. They seem to now be use to winning. They seem to forget that it was PC that brought that feeling of winning to Seattle. Winning in this league is very difficult. 12 teams have never won the super bowl...and 4 of those teams have never even been to the superbowl.

I think those that believe this team would find more success without PC are delusional and have some very unrealistic expectations.
And? Virtually all of those wins came close to a decade ago at this point. Carroll is now 3-6 since his last post Super Bowl run in the playoffs. The last victory was against a 40 year old Luke McCown led Eagles team because Wentz got injured at the beginning of the game. That is a single playoff win in 6 years against a backup QB. The other two victories? Teddy Bridgewater and an injured Matt Stafford Lions that backed into the playoffs.

The win over the Vikings was gifted to us courtesy of Walsh. He missed a 32 yarder at the final second that would have sealed the game. Realistically he should be 2-7, that is REALLY bad. We then decided to sign said kicker to our team and he proceeded to miss everything.

The frustrating thing is I keep seeing the same mistakes made, year after year. It's like groundhogs day at this point. People just keep saying "give Pete time, he'll get us there". At this point we've been "re-tooling" the defense since 2017. Sure, Carroll might give you winning seasons, but let me tell you -- under the current arrangement he's never going to get us to the big game again.

He's going to be 72 next season, one year removed from the oldest coach to ever coach the game. How much longer can he realistically keep hitting the road? How much longer can he manage all aspects of the team like he's been doing? At this point we're hitting dimensioning returns with Carroll.

At some point we have to ask why this keeps happening. You can only point to one person because he has total control of the franchise. For the record, I think he can be successful under the right circumstances but I think it's time he got the Holmgren treatment. Have his authority over Schneider stripped, force him to fire his defensive coordinator and hire an established DC out of a group of candidates.

The Seahawks at this point are just spinning their wheels. Each season feels like a derivative of the next. The Seahawks have not really been a legitimate contender since 2014 under Carroll. Hell, since 2015 we've only won our division a grand total of two times.
 
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CPHawk

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Pts allowed rankings since 2018
2018: 11th
2019: 22nd
2020: 15th
2021: 12th
2022: 25th

Very middle of the road, yes? Average. Not LOB levels, but not the hot disaster some would have you believe
Don't always beleive .net narratives.
I tried to find the stats on missed tackles, but I can’t find it. But it seems like our biggest issues for the last 4-5 years, especially the first half of seasons is our bad tackling.
 

Spin Doctor

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Pts allowed rankings since 2018
2018: 11th
2019: 22nd
2020: 15th
2021: 12th
2022: 25th

Very middle of the road, yes? Average. Not LOB levels, but not the hot disaster some would have you believe
Don't always beleive .net narratives.
in 2020 and 2021 and 2022 we were on pace to break some really bad records regarding yards, points and rushing yards. The defense is never consistent -- we usually have a mid to late late season resurgence and then we get exploited in the postseason. In 2020, 2021 and 2022 a huge issue is that teams were able to sustain long drives on us as well. It most definitely is a mess, I don't think those stats tell the full story there.
 

Nunya

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And? Virtually all of those wins came close to a decade ago at this point. Carroll is now 3-6 since his last post Super Bowl run in the playoffs. The last victory was against a 40 year old Luke McCown led Eagles team because Wentz got injured at the beginning of the game. That is a single playoff win in 6 years against a backup QB.
As I mentioned it is hard to win in the NFL and even more so in the playoffs. There are very few coaches that have acquired the success you seem to think PC should obtain every season.

The frustrating thing is I keep seeing the same mistakes made, year after year. It's like groundhogs day at this point. People just keep saying "give Pete time, he'll get us there". At this point we've been "re-tooling" the defense since 2017. Sure, Carroll might give you winning seasons, but let me tell you -- he's never going to get us to the big game again.
Yes, the same mistakes that impacts every team in the NFL. Will he get us back to the Superbowl? Maybe....maybe not. The fact that you claim it is an absolute that he won't is nothing more than some extreme speculation and unrealistic bias.

He's going to be 72 next season, one year removed from the oldest coach to ever coach the game. How much longer can he realistically keep hitting the road? How much longer can he manage all aspects of the team like he's been doing? At this point we're hitting dimensioning returns with Carroll.
So you are an expert of human age related phycologists? Where did you get your degree? What makes you think PC is losing his mental abilities? No player has made that claim. No coach has made that claim. No pundit has made that claim. If fact, it you actually listen to the people to know and have contact with PC, they claim just the opposite. A majority of players love playing for him. Coaches seem to hold him in very high regards. Pundits....well they're pundits, but many still say PC is one of the best coaches in the league.

At some point we have to ask why this keeps happening. You can only point to one person because he has total control of the franchise. For the record, I think he can be successful under the right circumstances but I think it's time he got the Holmgren treatment. Have his authority over Schneider stripped, force him to fire his defensive coordinator and hire an established DC out of a group of candidates.
I have listened to many Seahawk players, past and present. I have listened to many people that are or have been a part of the Seahawk organization. Not a single one has said that PC exerts any authority over JS. In fact, the gist seems to be that they work well together and are more often in agreement than not. Did you listen to the Doug Baldwin interview? How about interviews with ANY players that have worked with PC and JS? You have seemed to have developed your own vision as to the team dynamics....and nothing even close to reality.

(EDIT: BTW, Holmgren only relinquished GM duties to focus more on coaching. He still was very much involved in personnel decisions)

The Seahawks at this point are just spinning their wheels. Each season feels like a derivative of the next. The Seahawks have not really been a legitimate contender since 2014 under Carroll.
And who would you suggest that would be a guaranteed improvement over PC? You can't name anybody because you don't know. You have built your unrealistic expectations and are holding onto them very firmly. The Seahawks out performed the expectations of everybody this season and you still seem to have expected them to go deep in the playoffs and maybe even win the Superbowl. Sure the team may have been "underperforming" the last few seasons. Teams tend to do that when 2-3 players eat up a bulk of your salary cap. At this point, I would expect the Seahawks to be decent competitors next season and certainly the season after next. If not, then maybe I will be moving into your camp. However, this season, they "over performed" and I don't think it is a good idea to throw the baby out with the bathwater (to use an old phrase). However, to claim as an absolute that PC will never make the Superbowl again is ridiculous rhetoric that makes it hard to take you seriously. It is as ridiculous as me saying the Seahawks will never win a Superbowl again without PC.
 
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Nunya

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.... -- we usually have a mid to late late season resurgence and then we get exploited in the postseason. In 2020, 2021 and 2022 a huge issue is that teams were able to sustain long drives on us as well. It most definitely is a mess, I don't think those stats tell the full story there.
And when have we had those "resurgences"? Oh yeah, only under PC teams. Before PC, do you know how many seasons we have had with double digits regular season wins? 5....in a total of 34 seasons....and NEVER back-to-back.

As I said earlier. Some Seahawk fans have gotten use to winning and PC is the one that brought that winning feeling to Seattle. Seems a bit ironic that some people now expect to ALWAYS win and think it is a great plan to get rid on the one person that made "Winning" and "Seahawks" synonymous.
 
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Spin Doctor

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And when have we had those "resurgences"? Oh yeah, only under PC teams. Before PC, do you know how many seasons we have had with double digits regular season wins? 5....in a total of 34 seasons....and NEVER back-to-back.

As I said earlier. Some Seahawk fans have gotten use to winning and PC is the one that brought that winning feeling to Seattle. Seems a bit ironic that some people now expect to ALWAYS win and think it is a great plan to get rid on the one person that made "Winning" and "Seahawks" synonymous.
You know when we were on pace to give up all of those points? Under Pete Carroll teams, see we both can play that game. Consistency and a lack of discipline are two hallmarks of Carroll teams post LOB.

I don't really don't care about winning enough to compete for a wildcard spot. At this point it just seems like a tease. This same exact story has been played over time and time again. We keep making the same mistakes, we keep having the same issues across different D-coordinators and offensive coordinators.

I don't expect to always win, I just don't think the current guy is up to the task to ever get us back to the Super Bowl. I'd be willing to sacrifice consistent 8-10 win seasons for a person that could potentially get us over the hump. Pete Carroll's teams are nothing but a tease at this point and it is frustrating to watch.

The same mistakes keep getting played out, it's feels like we're trapped in groundhogs day.

As I said before, Carroll makes bad teams over-perform but he also has absolutely been a liability within postseason. Hence, why I say we have Marty Schottenheimer situation on our hands. Good coach, always had winning teams, but he couldn't stay out of his own way during the playoffs.
 

Hawkpower

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in 2020 and 2021 and 2022 we were on pace to break some really bad records regarding yards, points and rushing yards. The defense is never consistent -- we usually have a mid to late late season resurgence and then we get exploited in the postseason. In 2020, 2021 and 2022 a huge issue is that teams were able to sustain long drives on us as well. It most definitely is a mess, I don't think those stats tell the full story there.

My post wasnt meant to imply the defense has been good. It hasnt

But in the last 24 hrs, the .net narrative about the defense since 2017 has lost all sense of control

They've been average to slightly below average.

Pete haters would have us believe they've been historically bad

Just bringing some balance
 

LickMyNuts

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Yep nothing like a good one and done a$$ beating in the playoffs to put a stamp on a fine season. I mean that's what it's all about right, making the playoffs? I thought it was winning it all. Silly me.
It was a great season for a team in transition. Two rookie tackles, rookie rb and three rookies in the secondary. A team that’s trying to clear some cap space and make another run.

The PC bashers are relighting their torches.
 

Hawkpower

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I tried to find the stats on missed tackles, but I can’t find it. But it seems like our biggest issues for the last 4-5 years, especially the first half of seasons is our bad tackling.

Agreed
It hasnt been good
 

Nunya

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You know when we were on pace to give up all of those points? Under Pete Carroll teams, see we both can play that game. Consistency and a lack of discipline are two hallmarks of Carroll teams post LOB.

I don't really don't care about winning enough to compete for a wildcard spot. At this point it just seems like a tease. This same exact story has been played over time and time again. We keep making the same mistakes, we keep having the same issues across different D-coordinators and offensive coordinators.

I don't expect to always win, I just don't think the current guy is up to the task to ever get us back to the Super Bowl. I'd be willing to sacrifice consistent 8-10 win seasons for a person that could potentially get us over the hump. Pete Carroll's teams are nothing but a tease at this point and it is frustrating to watch.

The same mistakes keep getting played out, it's feels like we're trapped in groundhogs day.

As I said before, Carroll makes bad teams over-perform but he also has absolutely been a liability within postseason. Hence, why I say we have Marty Schottenheimer situation on our hands. Good coach, always had winning teams, but he couldn't stay out of his own way during the playoffs.
As I have said twice so far, winning in the NFL is hard....and even harder in the playoffs.

Did you know that PC is ranked #14 when valuing number of playoff appearances and factoring win and looses? (note: not win % by itself)

By post-season win % alone for coaches with more than 10 playoff appearances he is ranked #25....OF ALL TIME.

By post-season win % alone for coaches with more than 20 playoff appearances he is ranked #11....OF ALL TIME.

As I also mentioned.....unrealistic expectations.

Coaches Sorted by 1st – Most Wins 2nd – Fewest Losses
RankCoachWinsLossesPercent
Team(s)
Listed in order coached
Championship
Season(s)
Ref
13113.705Browns (1–1)
Patriots** (30–12)
2001, 2003, 2004, 2014, 2016, 2018[1]
22016.556Cowboys**1971, 1977[2]
31916.543Eagles (10–9)
Chiefs ^ (9–7)
2019[3]
4
Don Shula
1917.528Colts** (2–3)1968[4]
4
Don Shula
1917.528Dolphins** (17–14)1972, 1973[4]
5
Joe Gibbs
177.708Redskins**1982, 1987, 1991[5]
6168.667Steelers**1974, 1975, 1978, 1979[6]
71311.542Packers ^ (9–5)
Seahawks (4–6)
1996[7]
8127.632Jaguars (4–4)
Giants** (8–3)
2007, 2011[8]
9129.571Steelers ^2005[9]
10118.579Giants** (8–3)
Patriots (2–2) Jets (1–1)
Cowboys (0–2)
1986, 1990[10]
10
Marv Levy
118.579Bills[11]
10118.579Ravens ^2012[12]
13119.550Broncos (7–6) Giants (1–1)
Falcons (3–2)
[13]
141111.500Patriots (1–2)
Seahawks ^ (10–9)
2013[14]
 
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BASF

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Pete Carroll defined the defensive meta when he came from the USC. Dan Quinn in particular has a very good track record as DC outside the Hawks. Carroll utilized players that people were overlooking in response to the changing landscape of offenses. He was ahead of the curve coming from USC.

Since the playoff game in Atlanta game in 2016 where Shanahan and company destroyed the Seahawks defense, we've had issues. Teams adapted, Pete didn't until this year. The Seahawks used more base defense than any other team for example. Since then Carroll has been playing catch-up on defense. Over the years we've seen some nutty things like base defenses in response to sets it shouldn't be used, D-lineman being dropped into coverage. Hiring of Norton Jr, a guy that failed into his position here.

Carroll was a great defensive mind, but I think he's going the way of Holmgren. One of the reasons that Holmgren gave up coaching because he said he felt he no longer could keep up with the game. Holmgren's WCO was very old school and he recognized that.
I respect you a lot Spin and this is not directed at you, but I wonder why any time the Pete detractors do these run downs, it is never mentioned that the league literally changed rules about how offense and defense is played in response to the defense Carroll ran? It is hard to adapt to trends when the league is cutting your legs out from under you.
 
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