Pete uncertain whether Jamal will be ready week 1

RiverDog

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Just cut him already and admit you made the worst trade in Seahawk history and move on.
That's easy for us to say, but we're not the ones that made the decision to make the trade. Admitting to a mistake, especially such an expensive, high profile mistake, is extremely difficult for these alpha male coaches and GM's.
 

morgulon1

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EVERY front office makes mistakes. They've also made a lot of great draft picks and moves. Fade and company coming in to blast my opinion in 3....2....1.......
Yes people are coming down hard on the front office and Jamal Adams. I'm 💯 sure that's not what Schneider and Carroll had in mind . I'm sure this isn't what Adams had in mind. I get the frustration and what ifs but these are people.

I like the fact that you point out that for that "bad move" ,they also draft all pro cornerbacks in the 5th round. Traded Buffalo a bag of magic freaking beans for Beast Mode. Took a "bust" QB and tutored him for a couple of seasons and when he was ready, traded #3 much to the puzzlement of ALL the experts for a king's ransom.

Im certainly in the pro Carroll/Schneider camp.
 

SoulfishHawk

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Yep. You hit on some and you swing and miss on others. Adams isn't getting hurt on purpose. He has a passion for the game, clearly. They gave it a shot, it didn't work out. Oh well. Plenty of things HAVE worked out for this team and this front office.
 

12thManWpg

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I still have hope that Jamal will come back and contribute great things. Part of that might due to how excited I was when we traded for him, but I really want to see him come back and play great for us. I'd prefer not to cut him before next season and give him one more shot to contribute.
 

morgulon1

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I think they'll give him every opportunity to get back. I honestly hope he makes it.
He's a Seahawk therefore I am in his corner. He's a bad dude. I don't care if he comes back week 10 and helps in the playoffs 😁.


Playoffs?!?!
 
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flv2

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Adams' 2023 contract is guaranteed for injury. Clearly he isn't healthy enough to pass a physical at this time. Cutting him now would mean the Seahawks were on the hook for his remaining 2023 money, (which is substantial), with no possibility of getting anything in return for it. If you keep him and end up with 8 games of back-up play it's still better than getting nothing. If he was healthy enough to pass a physical i'd understand calls to cut him. Having another space on a 90-man roster isn't enough reward for a hasty action. Patience, grasshoppers.
 

keasley45

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Its crazy to me how critical folks are of Adams and now with hindsight, the decision by the FO to trade for him.

Folks forget the circumstances of the time, or just choose to ignore them. The picks we gave up were picks taht were devalued because of the impact COVID had on the college season. John said as much at the time, remarking that they were a little more willing to gamble with their draft capital because of how the pandemic upended the CFB season. That if they were ever going to consider giving up premium picks, that year was the time to do it.

And Jamal at the time was considered either the best or 2nd best defensive player in the league. IN THE LEAGUE. Not the best Safety. The best defensive player. SO... you have picks in hand of questionable value and the opportunity to get a player of unquestionable ability at a position of need.

And... we were at a point where we SHOULD have made a run at the lombardi. Our defense was good enough and our offense way underachieved over the 2nd half of the season. But 2020 saw the beginning of the end of any semblance of a cohesive team dynamic / relationship between the FO and Russ. RW imploded mid season in a fashion he hadnt previoulsy and the collapse carried into a wildcard loss to the Rams... and then torpedoed the following season We should have never lost that game and had a legit shot at the NFC champiosnhip round in 2020. But... a defense that was good enough over the last half of the season, was mortally wounded by an offense that couldnt stay on the field.

The gamble to give up compartively little in relation to what the value of the picks we gave away would have been in any other year, failed, not becaise the player we acquired choked. It failed because the team we put him on crapped the bed.

Yes. last year was lost because JA was injured and the prior year was shortened by injury as well. But the negative perception of the guy would be FAR less had the team actually made good on the move to bring him in during a year the FO saw as our last best shot before needing to figure out what it was going to do with Russ.

Fact remains that when hes on the field, he's our best defensive player. You can criticize his coverage ability if you want, but there have been vid analysis posted speaking specifically to the fact that JA is unfairly blamed by fans for coverage busts because its not obvious where failures on the backend occur without having the benefit of knowing the roles of each position on a given play. Has he dropped some picks? yup. But hes also made some absurd plays, particularly in his first year here.

Has the team received the value they'd anticipated when they made the trade? no, because the TEAM and particularly, the OFFENSE failed in 2020 and because Jamal has sustained injuries that could not have been predicted when we made the move to get him. But to call it the worst decision in Hawks history? Thats a bit much. In retrospect, its yet to have panned out. A bad decision? It was a logical gamble and the failure durinig the season it was made had nothing to do with the player they acquired. In fact, he was the centerpiece of the defense and did his part.
 

SoulfishHawk

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Good points, Keasley. As frustrated as we are, imagine how HE feels. He has a passion for the game, period.
I've never understood getting mad at a player and talking sh** about him, all because he got hurt. Lame
 

keasley45

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Good points, Keasley. As frustrated as we are, imagine how HE feels. He has a passion for the game, period.
I've never understood getting mad at a player and talking sh** about him, all because he got hurt. Lame
Ive thought the same thing. ESPECIALLY after his first year. Here he is, the top FA and defensive acquisition in the league. he comes in and wreaks havoc the entire season, and has his season shortened because unbeknownst to him, he stepped onto a team on the verge of internal collapse because of the drama at the QB position. A position that he mentioned several times as one of the reasons he was most excited to come here. He was a wrecking ball his first year here and it was wasted.

So as much as fans are pissed about the return on the player, Jamal, I'm sure was in pure WTF mode after we were run out of the wildcard round his first year here.

And given how exceptionally gifted and competitive he is, i'm sure there's NO ONE more disappointed at how things have turned out as he is over the last 2 years.
 

keasley45

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gotta say again, the FO brought him in to be the difference maker in 2020 and put us over the top.

We were 12 and 4 with our only losses coming to the cards, bills, rams, and giants. Of those 4 losses, WE GAVE AWAY losses to the Cards in OT, Rams and Giants and just played poorly against the Bills.

Had we not given those games away, we'd have been 15-1 with home field advantage throughout the playoffs, a shot at the Lombardi, and folks would have been crediting JA in large part for the difference. 15-1 with the tape he put together that year... it would have been seen as a brilliant move to get him and we'd be looking forward to getting him back now through completely different lenses.

The FO gambled and we SHOULD have seen the reward from it.

Looking forward to him being back on the field and making good on the promise this go-round.
 

themunn

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Its crazy to me how critical folks are of Adams and now with hindsight, the decision by the FO to trade for him.

Folks forget the circumstances of the time, or just choose to ignore them. The picks we gave up were picks taht were devalued because of the impact COVID had on the college season. John said as much at the time, remarking that they were a little more willing to gamble with their draft capital because of how the pandemic upended the CFB season. That if they were ever going to consider giving up premium picks, that year was the time to do it.

And Jamal at the time was considered either the best or 2nd best defensive player in the league. IN THE LEAGUE. Not the best Safety. The best defensive player. SO... you have picks in hand of questionable value and the opportunity to get a player of unquestionable ability at a position of need.

And... we were at a point where we SHOULD have made a run at the lombardi. Our defense was good enough and our offense way underachieved over the 2nd half of the season. But 2020 saw the beginning of the end of any semblance of a cohesive team dynamic / relationship between the FO and Russ. RW imploded mid season in a fashion he hadnt previoulsy and the collapse carried into a wildcard loss to the Rams... and then torpedoed the following season We should have never lost that game and had a legit shot at the NFC champiosnhip round in 2020. But... a defense that was good enough over the last half of the season, was mortally wounded by an offense that couldnt stay on the field.

The gamble to give up compartively little in relation to what the value of the picks we gave away would have been in any other year, failed, not becaise the player we acquired choked. It failed because the team we put him on crapped the bed.

Yes. last year was lost because JA was injured and the prior year was shortened by injury as well. But the negative perception of the guy would be FAR less had the team actually made good on the move to bring him in during a year the FO saw as our last best shot before needing to figure out what it was going to do with Russ.

Fact remains that when hes on the field, he's our best defensive player. You can criticize his coverage ability if you want, but there have been vid analysis posted speaking specifically to the fact that JA is unfairly blamed by fans for coverage busts because its not obvious where failures on the backend occur without having the benefit of knowing the roles of each position on a given play. Has he dropped some picks? yup. But hes also made some absurd plays, particularly in his first year here.

Has the team received the value they'd anticipated when they made the trade? no, because the TEAM and particularly, the OFFENSE failed in 2020 and because Jamal has sustained injuries that could not have been predicted when we made the move to get him. But to call it the worst decision in Hawks history? Thats a bit much. In retrospect, its yet to have panned out. A bad decision? It was a logical gamble and the failure durinig the season it was made had nothing to do with the player they acquired. In fact, he was the centerpiece of the defense and did his part.

Absolutely agree - remember that we made this trade in the 2020 offseason for 2021 and 2022 draft picks, so we got a full year of Adams (minus injuries) before the picks ever materialised. And we went 12-4 and picked in the lower half of the first round in 2021 as a result. Take a look back at the players picked in that range and ask if you'd trade any one of them for Adams today. Between our original pick and our pick of Eskridge, there's maybe one or two at most - in all likelihood we would have traded that pick away anyway, maybe to collect more 2022 picks.

Now, having a massive fall back to earth in 2021 was against expectations, but it's also the year where we hit peak Me-3 and alongside his injury we ended up trading away a much higher pick that maybe we would have originally anticipated. Had we won just 1 more game we probably pick outside of the top 14 or so in 2022, and while the dip in quality wasn't as bad as 2021, I think once Jordan Davis is gone we trade back so it was borderline also where I'd have expected us to be.

It will be really fun to see when Adams comes back in what I anticipate our strongest defense in the last 5+ years, because I still think when fully fit he's the best player on the team.
 

AgentDib

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There's too much gambler fallacy in there for me. It's ill advised to trade important draft capital for players who are wanting a big payday. When you take a big gamble it's tempting to blame bad luck when it fails but the reality is that we should have been more patient. Sound roster building is centered in building through the draft.
And Jamal at the time was considered either the best or 2nd best defensive player in the league. IN THE LEAGUE. Not the best Safety. The best defensive player.
This take ignores positional value pretty hard.

The reason why Jamal was even on the market in the first place was that the Jets were balking at paying a safety $15m/year. Meanwhile, the best edge rushers earn nearly double that - $28m/yr T.Watt, $27m/yr J.Bosa, $25m/yr Garrett, $24m/yr Mack, $24m/yr Crosby, $22m/yr Chubb, $20m/yr Miller. Teams pay players based on perceived value, and Jamal Adams was very clearly not perceived anywhere near the top.

I also think it's debatable that he was the best safety. He was in the conversation but Fitzpatrick, Simmons, Budda, and Mathieu were regarded comparably, in addition to the Harris/Smith Vikings duo.

The gamble to give up compartively little in relation to what the value of the picks we gave away would have been in any other year, failed, not becaise the player we acquired choked. It failed because the team we put him on crapped the bed.
The draft capital we gave up for Adams was in no way "comparably little" due to Covid. Two firsts and a third is an enormous cost, as draft picks are the only way to add talent to a team at a value higher than the player's salary. Our last two off-seasons have been exciting largely due to having a good amount of draft capital to work with for once and keeping draft capital coming in should be a front office priority.

If we had low confidence in first round players in 2021 then that should have been an opportunity to acquire more draft capital by trading down or back. The Jets taking Garrett Wilson with our 2022 pick would have made this trade look bad even if Jamal had stayed completely healthy.

Ultimately, it's a bad gamble to go all in at the expense of the future because the NFL is highly uncertain. You may think we got unlucky in 2020, but I'd argue our 2020 season (12-4, WC Loss to Rams) was well within the bounds of expected outcomes for a contending team. The more talented team only wins 2/3 of the time and that Rams team was roughly as good as we were. Our offense was better, but the Rams were 4th in defensive DVOA that season while we were middle of the road at 16th.
 

Ostatehawk

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Who was picked in the draft for the picks traded for JA?? Not that it matters - I am just curious and am sure someone knows.
 

AgentDib

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Direct swap of Bradley McDougald for Jamal Adams. We then picked Coby Bryant with their 2022 4th, and they took Alijah Vera-Tucker and Garrett Wilson with our 2021 and 2022 first round picks (the third round pick was used to move up in 2021).
 

keasley45

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There's too much gambler fallacy in there for me. It's ill advised to trade important draft capital for players who are wanting a big payday. When you take a big gamble it's tempting to blame bad luck when it fails but the reality is that we should have been more patient. Sound roster building is centered in building through the draft.

This take ignores positional value pretty hard.

The reason why Jamal was even on the market in the first place was that the Jets were balking at paying a safety $15m/year. Meanwhile, the best edge rushers earn nearly double that - $28m/yr T.Watt, $27m/yr J.Bosa, $25m/yr Garrett, $24m/yr Mack, $24m/yr Crosby, $22m/yr Chubb, $20m/yr Miller. Teams pay players based on perceived value, and Jamal Adams was very clearly not perceived anywhere near the top.

I also think it's debatable that he was the best safety. He was in the conversation but Fitzpatrick, Simmons, Budda, and Mathieu were regarded comparably, in addition to the Harris/Smith Vikings duo.


The draft capital we gave up for Adams was in no way "comparably little" due to Covid. Two firsts and a third is an enormous cost, as draft picks are the only way to add talent to a team at a value higher than the player's salary. Our last two off-seasons have been exciting largely due to having a good amount of draft capital to work with for once and keeping draft capital coming in should be a front office priority.

If we had low confidence in first round players in 2021 then that should have been an opportunity to acquire more draft capital by trading down or back. The Jets taking Garrett Wilson with our 2022 pick would have made this trade look bad even if Jamal had stayed completely healthy.

Ultimately, it's a bad gamble to go all in at the expense of the future because the NFL is highly uncertain. You may think we got unlucky in 2020, but I'd argue our 2020 season (12-4, WC Loss to Rams) was well within the bounds of expected outcomes for a contending team. The more talented team only wins 2/3 of the time and that Rams team was roughly as good as we were. Our offense was better, but the Rams were 4th in defensive DVOA that season while we were middle of the road at 16th.
Thoughtful post.

I dont think its gambler fallacy. I think (and the underacheiving, not unlucky, finish to the season showed it) they were looking for the piece to elevate the group they had for 2020 AND to reset the character of the team on defense - something they'd failed at doing for years. Even with his injury, all the talk on D about being 'multiple' and varied from essentially static personnel packages... that was in large part driven by the acquisition of Jamal. He was never 'just a safety'. Ever. Not before he was acquired, and not since he's been here. So hemming and hawing about how we overpaid for a safety is misplaced. He's a wildcard who factors hugely into what we want to do. And unfortunately for the team and for him, hes been injured.

As to the perceived value of the draft picks they gave up. A first round pick for the Hawks the way they typically drafted in the Russ era (post LOB) wasnt a first round pick anyway, and the fact that COVID clouded the pool of talent further - JS's assessmnet, not mine, played into the FO not seeing the gamble in the same way they would have otherwise. To me its perfectly reasonable to think that if what you need is a player to tip you to a championship in the near future and reset the identity thereafter, a bird in hand is worth more than two (firsts) in the bush. Jamal was seen as *and still is - the center of the defense. Claiming player X was a slam dunk gurantee to be a better value? That's hindsight bias. They didnt want player X for what they wanted to build. they wanted the unique piece that was / is Jamal.

I honestly think the main reason his value is questioned is because of his injury. But that can happen to any player. If we'd moved up this year to grab player x at spot #2 and given up 1st and 2nd round picks because we felt he was our future and then he blew out his knee, and lost a season or two, is that a poor decision? i think it would be seen as bad luck, not a bad move. And Jamal had PROVEN value and was in convo as the best defesive player in the league.

As to the positonal value of a safety - 2 things - Jamal signed at a time when Safeties were seeing significant money. That's changed since, but try negotiating with a top flight NFL player on the basis that the value of his position will be decreasing in the coming years. Thats just not going to work.

They werent building the roster from the floor up the way they are now. So comparing the strategy deployed in a rebuild around an influx of youth vs adding a long term piece to a roster you feel is ready to win now is apples and oranges. That, and Seattle has, and still values players based on what they need and not what conventional wisdom dictates. Its how they built their championship teams. At the time, with the roster they had, they saw a player in Jamal who was an X factor, the future and the player around which the defense would be built. In 2020, we sent the 2nd most players to the probowl and should have been tops in the league were it not for obvious snubs. The talent was there for what they pushed the chips in for.

I also think they absolutely saw a further rebuild coming and additional capital in moving Russ. JS had already explored the idea the year prior and as we now know, he had no intention of re-upping Russ. So whatever 'loss' they risked in the trade for Jamal, would be mitigated by those gains.

Im not saying they planned every move out, But in rolling the dice the way they did, between a dimished COVID draft year and the pending depature of Russ, they felt it was a solid move.

And if the team builds on what it did last year, improves on offense and clicks on defense with Jamal as the xfactor making the whole thing go, PC and JS will look brilliant again for the guy being in Seahawks Blue.
 
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