Poll: Collins or Pope?

[johnnyfever]

I like Pope. Lesser competition or not, he has shown he doesn't need the o-line to create a hole. Just give him a li'l crease and he makes plays.

That is exactly it. Pro Collins guys complain about the line, but pope made his own opportunities behind the same guys. More usable in our system I think.

 

[Jerhawk]

I just hope this doesn't turn into a Nick Reed vs. Michael Bennett type of a cut. We all know how that turned out. Thanks Jim Mora Jr...

 

[Evil_Shenanigans]

I have been a huge Pope fan ever since KC. That being said, whichever one (or both?) we don't sign or stash will wind up facing us sooner rather than later. The NFC west is cutthroat now and I assure you the Cards, Rams and ninnies are watching very closely. I don't envy JS in moments like this.

 

[hawkfan68]

Between Collins and Pope, I chose Pope but it really should be a Pope vs. Prosise poll, IMO. I'd keep both Pope and Collins, they offer different types of value. Pope is more like Prosise than he is Collins. Prosise, besides his high draft selection, hasn't been impressive in preseason games.

 

[Hawks46]

I went with Pope. He's clearly out played Collins.

That said, I think they keep Collins because they spent a 5th rounder on the guy and there was so much excitement from being able to get him in the 5th round. Sadly, it just doesn't look like his college production will translate to the NFL.

The weird thing is that everyone keeps expecting him to be the "power" back. Just looking at him, he has smaller legs, but just look at the numbers: Michael weighs 225, Rawls weighs 220. Prosise weighs 220. Collins weighs 217, and it's all in his upper body. Weight isn't everything but physics don't lie: 225 lbs coming at you (faster) over 217 lbs....225 moves objects easier. Michael doesn't play like a power back because he's so exposive, but Rawls breaks way more tackles than Collins does.

From looking at preseason production, I would think Collins would make the PS if released, but I think some GM will think he's getting a steal because we cut our 5th round "draft steal" and he's getting it for free.

 

[vin.couve12]

Apologies to Nate The Great for last night. I was out of line.

 

[Russ Willstrong]

After seeing the preseason games it appears that Collins doesnt have the speed/quickness to challenge NFL defenses (especially in the NFC). Just as a comp Eddy Lacy looked similar as a rookie but brought a much bigger load and with better balance. You cant finish runs if you can't even get started.
At this point Pope's quickness, decisiveness and receiving skills provide more upside in our offense.
Funny that John Clayton is going to eat crow big time if PC determines Pope>Collins.

 

[vin.couve12]

While Collins has nice burst on his 3rd or 4th step, his initial steps are painfully slow. For this reason, he's a completely ineffective back out of read option looks because they require a RB to be very sudden. Collins also isn't very good as a pure between the tackles power back. See him get planted on his backside that one run? That would never happen to Lynch, or even to most average power runners.

Where Collins does shine (faintly) is in single set back formations where the ball is snapped under center and Collins is very deep behind the LOS. This gives Collins time to hit full speed by the time he takes the handoff, and if you give him a place to run with that modestly good 2nd gear, he can get you some 10-20 yard runs.

It seems Seattle's coaches realized this as well and started giving Collins several single set back looks in a row during the 4th quarter. Not surprisingly, this is when Collins finally started to look like a productive RB.

Unfortunately, these kinds of runs are only one piece of the puzzle for Tom Cable's system, and Collins' looking absolutely horrible out of read option looks would be the kiss of death in a just world. That said, John Schneider was higher on Collins than most and apparently was pretty enthusiastic about Collins' big carries tonight. It would be a big mistake to cut Pope for Collins, but don't be surprised if draft bias gets the better of our GM.

Pope just continues to look like a good NFL player. He's not J-Force 2.0, he's Rawls-lite. And Rawls-lite is something I really want on this roster a year from now when C-Mike signs a lucrative contract with another team this next offseason. Pope has earned the right to be this team's #2 RB in 2017. If they cut him this weekend, Seattle will be pissing away a good player, for nothing.

Oh that's right we have CJ Procise... actually, he looked pretty bad tonight.

PCJS seem to make 1-2 "wtf" cuts every preseason, so it wouldn't shock me at all if Pope got cut.

y

If they had drafted Tyler Ervin like I think you wanted and I definitely wanted, we wouldn't need to
even have this discussion.
When I watch him run kicks and make plays in both the running and passing game for the Texans,
I burn with envy.

I forgot about him. I wasn't as high on him as Kearly and some others because he had a WR's body playing RB, but he was a burner with a lot of skill none the less. And now I'm wondering what he's done this preseason...

 

[vin.couve12]

Nice KO return.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-high ... r+Ervin%22

 

[MontanaHawk05]

Ahh yes, not willing to back up your ridiculous statements you then claim if he does stick that there must be some nefarious reason other than the coaches seeing a man with talent and ability and wanting to keep him

There's no need for you to get abrasive over football, my friend.

In addition, other posters ihere have contributed about ten times as much actual information about Collins and Pope as you have. Your contributions are composed of an eye roll emoticon and two swaggerings about making bets, as if you're actually offended that someone has a different opinion.




On-topic...I think Collins gets picked up, but that's probably more to do with some team being RB-desperate than Collins' quality at this point. He just hasn't shown anything. Pope has outplayed him and out-attituded him. I'd like to see what he can do against starters, and I'm thinking Pete would too, but my pessimism has always kinda had Collins getting kept and then cut in a couple years while Pope finds himself a star for some other team.

 

[Natethegreat]

Apologies to Nate The Great for last night. I was out of line.

Thanks for the apology though I don't really think you owed me one. I probably shouldn't have gotten into a pissing match over it. I do think Collins has talent but I think he has to figure out how to run in a zone blocking scheme.
I do agree that smaller backs with elite cut back ability and explosion tend to do better in our scheme but I also think Collins is stronger and has better power than Pope and it showed on a couple runs last night too. Pope is great at finding holes and hitting them quick but when we used him in short yardage he was stopped cold at the line of scrimmage and it wasn't because he was hit in the backfield.
I see Collins as a guy who once he learns the system is a 5+ yards a carry back even though he isn't going to be ripping off 30+ yard runs very often.
I, like many here, like Pope and think he has been the cool story of the preseason. It may be they find a spot for both after last nights performance in which I think both played well.

 

[IndyHawk]

I didn't see the game but I go with the 12's who did because I have been proven wrong on my thoughts such as Rawls last year ect.A lot of Pope love is in here so I will join.I never cared for the CJ P pick and so far he is doing what I thought there is a reason he went from WR to CB and then RB only by injury need.At ND he had a massive Dallas like line and had huge holes that Kearly would have ran through.AC seems like a bust so no need to keep garbage right?I hope Pete stays with who competes and shows up regardless of their draft status,I want hungry football players no matter drafted or not.

Little quick to cut bait on a third round pick, don't you think?

I think Prosise is going to be very good for us.

Maybe I am a little quick but I watched this guy for 3 years when he was able to play,he lucked into the Rb job by injury and he himself gets hurt.How he gets drafted early is beyond me,I hope he proves me wrong but he sure has not so far.He isn't a natural RB and we do not have a Dallas line so he can look better than he is.I'm sorry but I think JS screwed up on that pick but we'll see.

 

[TwistedHusky]

Collins has fundamental issues in how he runs that limits his ability to produce.

If he makes the team, I am doubting he ever amounts to anything unless he changes his approach. The question becomes why you risk a slot for one of the easiest positions to find replacements. (ie big slow RB without much power).

If he changes his stance, does he slow down? Because you run wide for power, narrow for speed. Any his 1 to 2nd gears are so ridiculously slow it won't matter. Sure at full speed he becomes a load, but that rarely happens and as a power back you are supposed to get the ball when everyone expects you to run. He won't have enough intertia to push the pile.

I mean sure, I would pick him over Procise because Procise has only shown trash so far. Unless Procise turns into a great WR I don't understand what everyone sees in that guy. But expecting anything from AC (if he is healthy) is folly if this is how he produces when close to 100%.

The only way you can support AC is to make the case he is still hurt and is producing in spite of being held back physically. Because his fundamentals are crap, his production is poor save in garbage time of the last game and his TD was basically Pope getting all the way to the front porch and then bringing AC in to ring the doorbell.

Pope did some stuff in garbage time too, but he has done stuff consistently in almost every game. And in garbage time he was clearly running rings around the rest of the guys on the field.

 

[stack600]

I voted Collins, but I want to keep both. I don't see Collins clearing waivers but Pope might. And good point about Rawls and his preseason last year . By the time he stepped in for Marshawn he had 1/2 a season of practices. Collins could become a pro version of his college self and Pope is a great change of pace back, and in truth how come we are sold on Rawls. I hope he picks up were he left off before the injury, but cant be sure ....just saying I like Rawls but his body of work is limited, impressive but limited .....food for thought ....GO HAWKS

 

[RichNhansom]

The thing about Troymaine Pope is that he reminded me of, say, the 2012 preseason when we would have players who dominated second- and third-stringers. Pope was around that level where he was just clearly better than the other team's scrubs.

A guy who flashes that much against lesser talent clearly has enough of it to be on a 53-man roster.

Thanks for saying this, I've been feeling this all preseason as well. Our back half of the current roster would have gotten trucked by the back half of the 2012 and 2013 rosters. You are right that Pope is like a symbol of what that level of quality is supposed to look like for a PCJS team. But they've really struggled at finding that quality at the back end in recent years. It's probably because the rest of the NFL is looking for the same players now.

I was thinking about this. It does seem like we had much better depth in 2012 and 13 but now I'm kind of wondering if that is more of a reflection of the veteran depth on the team now. Before we had a large amount of players on the field trying to make the roster and playing as hard as possible now I think some of the vets are dialing it down a bit to save it for the real games. In doing so it gives off the appearance we aren't as talented depth wise as before but I'm not sure the difference is a large as it appears.

I could be wrong but it makes sense in my mind.

 

[lukerguy]

Pope with make the team; they might carry both.

If Pope doesn't then the "competition" mantra falls on deaf ears. They will be consistent. He won a spot.

 

[Laloosh]

I voted Collins, but I want to keep both. I don't see Collins clearing waivers but Pope might. And good point about Rawls and his preseason last year . By the time he stepped in for Marshawn he had 1/2 a season of practices. Collins could become a pro version of his college self and Pope is a great change of pace back, and in truth how come we are sold on Rawls. I hope he picks up were he left off before the injury, but cant be sure ....just saying I like Rawls but his body of work is limited, impressive but limited .....food for thought ....GO HAWKS

I'm sold on Rawls. He was consistent and explosive behind a pretty shitty offensive line last year. We only saw two carries last night but the 2nd one looked like 2015 Thomas Rawls. I'm freaking stoked to watch this kid run again this year.

I was quick to jump on the Rawls bandwagon last year and I'm still on it.

Edit: Regarding the OP, Pope baby. The kid earned it.

 

[olyfan63]

Black smoke going up for our new Pope...

Have the feeling that whooshed over a lot of heads, but I liked it.

You really think Pete consulted the Cardinals on this one? Well then, why not ask the Saints too?

 

[kearly]

I thought Collins had a good game with several nice runs and a beautiful job in pass protection. But, once again, Pope looked more explosive. I would give the edge to Pope.

I thought Michael regressed back to some bad habits of hesitating too much. Rawls looked fully back on his 8-yard carry. Will Tukuafu was drilling people. The TE/FB Joe Sommers had a nice game too. Brandon Williams looked excellent again. Luke Willson showed off his athleticism on the first drive. Sowell, Glowinski, and Britt all looked solid in limited action. Ifedi had an off-game. I thought Gilliam looked OK. Webb, Evans, Fant, and Odhiambo looked pretty bad. Hunt was solid. Kenny Lawler had a nice play. Overall, the reserve receivers showed very little. Boykin looked frazzled.

Michael barely played, but he had to deal with backfield penetration on all of his snaps it seemed like. One of his runs, Glowinsky and Britt had a masterful double team that would have led to a 10-20 yard run, but Michael couldn't get there because Ifedi got blown up and forced Michael to hesitate and redirect.

 

[kearly]

5-8 and 210 is pretty friggin stout for that height. He outplayed Collins whether we like it or not, and I DO like it.

If Collins gets cut and snagged, so be it. At least we know we have a player that is tough and has that spark.

Sometimes your posting style makes me wonder if you are a direct relative of the Grozfather. And I mean that as a compliment. I like the way that you express common sense viewpoints, always entertaining.