Transition to put it on Russ

semiahmoo

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Sgt. Largent":dy54zjoh said:
TwistedHusky":dy54zjoh said:
Wilson is a winner. He isn't Elite but he is close and on his good days, he is better than any of the Elite - even on THEIR good days.

But if you pay him $30M, you have to make choices that prevent you from getting:
A good OL
A good D
A good run game
A good receiving corps

You might be able to get 2 of the above, but otherwise, you have to sacrifice.

We've already been wrestling with this since we gave him his first big contract.

This is really the elephant in the room with Russell. Is he the kind of "elite" QB you can build a high powered offense around, pay elite $$$ to, and still win because that greatly compromises your defensive budget.

Let's be honest, we went to two SB's because yes Russell was good, but #1 was our elite defense. It's not a coincidence that as soon as that elite D started to crumble, so did our playoff success.

I honestly don't know if Russell is the kind of Rodgers/Brady/Brees slam dunk elite QB that you can pay crazy money to and still win consistently.

I'll come right out and say it - he's not.

He's a solid QB who had some great athleticism which could thrill at times but as he ages/slows, his lack of true QB talent is being more fully exposed. Was sounding the alarm on this a couple seasons back. To even consider paying him 'elite' money at this point?

No-no-no. In fact, I'm open to shipping him off and doing a total retooling with Russ and Pete gone.

Reset button should have been hit after last season. It was partially done but time to finish it after this year. If we end up with a 4 or 5 win season (and that is looking increasingly likely) you'll see a lot more Hawk fans willing to see that happen.

Hey, even New England is looking at that kind of reformation in the not so distant future so we're in good company! :lol:
 

TwistedHusky

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Largent,

It really depends on what success is.

Is it reasonable to expect him to take you the SB? No.

But that is the same reason Aaron Rodgers will not be going to a SB. Even as a top 5 EVER QB. The realities of the cap means that a market rate QB cannot make the SB. The key to a SB is to have a high performing rookie (ideally 2nd or 3rd year) QB combined with a great defense. Or a veteran QB combined with a historic defense.

We did that. Denver did it. The Eagles did it.

QBs on their big contract make it too difficult for the team to pay for the other pieces they need. They not only cannot lure FAs, they often lose their best players to FA opportunities with bigger contracts.

Brady is the exception here, but Brady takes less than market rate and likely makes up for it with endorsement $$$. That money is then spent on other pieces of the team to keep it solid. For the most part, top rated QBs will generally make it to the playoffs but will not make SBs anymore.

So expecting a SB from Russ is folly. The NFL financial framework limits that option. Success is generally a very good regular season along with regular playoff successes over time. Based on the team makeup of a mediocre defense combined with a fairly average offense? Unlikely but possible if the offense improves.

The biggest problem for Russ is that we refuse to build our offense to leverage his strengths. We insist on trying to shoehorn him into something that focuses on his weaknesses instead. I still think he isn't Elite but he is much better than our offense is showing - and that is the fault of our strategy and tactics.
 

Seymour

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semiahmoo":3oufvoor said:
Sgt. Largent":3oufvoor said:
TwistedHusky":3oufvoor said:
Wilson is a winner. He isn't Elite but he is close and on his good days, he is better than any of the Elite - even on THEIR good days.

But if you pay him $30M, you have to make choices that prevent you from getting:
A good OL
A good D
A good run game
A good receiving corps

You might be able to get 2 of the above, but otherwise, you have to sacrifice.

We've already been wrestling with this since we gave him his first big contract.

This is really the elephant in the room with Russell. Is he the kind of "elite" QB you can build a high powered offense around, pay elite $$$ to, and still win because that greatly compromises your defensive budget.

Let's be honest, we went to two SB's because yes Russell was good, but #1 was our elite defense. It's not a coincidence that as soon as that elite D started to crumble, so did our playoff success.

I honestly don't know if Russell is the kind of Rodgers/Brady/Brees slam dunk elite QB that you can pay crazy money to and still win consistently.

I'll come right out and say it - he's not.

He's a solid QB who had some great athleticism which could thrill at times but as he ages/slows, his lack of true QB talent is being more fully exposed. Was sounding the alarm on this a couple seasons back. To even consider paying him 'elite' money at this point?

No-no-no. In fact, I'm open to shipping him off and doing a total retooling with Russ and Pete gone.

Reset button should have been hit after last season. It was partially done but time to finish it after this year. If we end up with a 4 or 5 win season (and that is looking increasingly likely) you'll see a lot more Hawk fans willing to see that happen.

Hey, even New England is looking at that kind of reformation in the not so distant future so we're in good company! :lol:

So it's pretty safe to say that other than losing our top 5 defense, needing to get rid of our franchise QB and SB winning coach....we are in pretty good shape to make another run?

Priceless appraisal..... / sarc :2thumbs:
 

Sgt. Largent

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TwistedHusky":1da05y2y said:
Largent,

It really depends on what success is.

Is it reasonable to expect him to take you the SB? No.

But that is the same reason Aaron Rodgers will not be going to a SB. Even as a top 5 EVER QB. The realities of the cap means that a market rate QB cannot make the SB. The key to a SB is to have a high performing rookie (ideally 2nd or 3rd year) QB combined with a great defense. Or a veteran QB combined with a historic defense.

We did that. Denver did it. The Eagles did it.

QBs on their big contract make it too difficult for the team to pay for the other pieces they need. They not only cannot lure FAs, they often lose their best players to FA opportunities with bigger contracts.

Brady is the exception here, but Brady takes less than market rate and likely makes up for it with endorsement $$$. That money is then spent on other pieces of the team to keep it solid. For the most part, top rated QBs will generally make it to the playoffs but will not make SBs anymore.

So expecting a SB from Russ is folly. The NFL financial framework limits that option. Success is generally a very good regular season along with regular playoff successes over time. Based on the team makeup of a mediocre defense combined with a fairly average offense? Unlikely but possible if the offense improves.

The biggest problem for Russ is that we refuse to build our offense to leverage his strengths. We insist on trying to shoehorn him into something that focuses on his weaknesses instead. I still think he isn't Elite but he is much better than our offense is showing - and that is the fault of our strategy and tactics.

As much as it hurts me to say this, cause I love Russell, I tend to agree with you.

The only reason the Pats are in contention for SB's every year is Brady signs lowball contracts AND they have the greatest X's and O's/scheme coach of all time that can turn just about any no name player into a great piece in his scheme puzzle.

We don't have either of those things, and you know Russell and his agent are going to want Rodgers money. He's not taking a Brady discount to stay here so we have more cap to compete.

So yes, Pete and John will have the toughest decision of their careers to make next year with Russell. Continue to go down this road of being hamstrung on cap trying to reform an elite defense? Or try to find the next young stud QB so they can build the defense faster to try and get back to a SB.
 

justafan

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TwistedHusky":1miuzpn9 said:
Wilson is a winner. He isn't Elite but he is close and on his good days, he is better than any of the Elite - even on THEIR good days.

But if you pay him $30M, you have to make choices that prevent you from getting:
A good OL
A good D
A good run game
A good receiving corps

You might be able to get 2 of the above, but otherwise, you have to sacrifice.


The QB always gets too much credit and too much blame.It will always be that way.
We have 3 proven Pro Bowl level players and a couple fringe. The season depends on how the other 20 or 30 players respond.

Wilson will get the blame but career ending injuries, bad drafts, and age are the reason this team is where its at.
 

kidhawk

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justafan":2rw7nefa said:
The Pete experiment? Im not sure what that means.

That's the part I picked up on too. I mean if back to back Super Bowl appearances, a Super Bowl victory along with annual playoff appearances is an "experiment" then sign me up for more of that experiment.
 

Seymour

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Sgt. Largent":1ofzf770 said:
TwistedHusky":1ofzf770 said:
Largent,

It really depends on what success is.

Is it reasonable to expect him to take you the SB? No.

But that is the same reason Aaron Rodgers will not be going to a SB. Even as a top 5 EVER QB. The realities of the cap means that a market rate QB cannot make the SB. The key to a SB is to have a high performing rookie (ideally 2nd or 3rd year) QB combined with a great defense. Or a veteran QB combined with a historic defense.

We did that. Denver did it. The Eagles did it.

QBs on their big contract make it too difficult for the team to pay for the other pieces they need. They not only cannot lure FAs, they often lose their best players to FA opportunities with bigger contracts.

Brady is the exception here, but Brady takes less than market rate and likely makes up for it with endorsement $$$. That money is then spent on other pieces of the team to keep it solid. For the most part, top rated QBs will generally make it to the playoffs but will not make SBs anymore.

So expecting a SB from Russ is folly. The NFL financial framework limits that option. Success is generally a very good regular season along with regular playoff successes over time. Based on the team makeup of a mediocre defense combined with a fairly average offense? Unlikely but possible if the offense improves.

The biggest problem for Russ is that we refuse to build our offense to leverage his strengths. We insist on trying to shoehorn him into something that focuses on his weaknesses instead. I still think he isn't Elite but he is much better than our offense is showing - and that is the fault of our strategy and tactics.

As much as it hurts me to say this, cause I love Russell, I tend to agree with you.

The only reason the Pats are in contention for SB's every year is Brady signs lowball contracts AND they have the greatest X's and O's/scheme coach of all time that can turn just about any no name player into a great piece in his scheme puzzle.

We don't have either of those things, and you know Russell and his agent are going to want Rodgers money. He's not taking a Brady discount to stay here so we have more cap to compete.

So yes, Pete and John will have the toughest decision of their careers to make next year with Russell. Continue to go down this road of being hamstrung on cap trying to reform an elite defense? Or try to find the next young stud QB so they can build the defense faster to try and get back to a SB.

That was a mistake to post!!

After 1 game against likely the best Dline in the NFL you want to bail on the 1 player that has the ability to take over and get us W's?

Sad the amount of people I see here ready to jump ship after 1 loss by 3 points at mile high. :pukeface:

hang-noose-fit-for-a-traitor.jpg
 

Sgt. Largent

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Seymour":1i928ytt said:
That was a mistake to post!!

After 1 game against likely the best Dline in the NFL you want to bail on the 1 player that has the ability to take over and get us W's?

Sad the amount of people I see here ready to jump ship after 1 loss by 3 points at mile high. :pukeface:

hang-noose-fit-for-a-traitor.jpg

Jesus you like to jump all over people's statements.

This is a philosophical discussion, not a real time "OMG WE NEED TO TRADE RUSSELL RIGHT NOW CAUSE HE'S TERRIBLE!!!"

It's a vaild question Seymour, can you build a SB caliber team around a QB like Russell with having to pay him 33M in 2020 going forward?

This year? Hell yes we need Russell, we need him bad. But big picture? I honestly don't know if we can get back to a SB with having to give him 33M+ a year, because I don't know if he can carry a team like other QB's making that kind of money compromising their cap.
 

Seymour

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Sgt. Largent":1q3vdiyx said:
Seymour":1q3vdiyx said:
That was a mistake to post!!

After 1 game against likely the best Dline in the NFL you want to bail on the 1 player that has the ability to take over and get us W's?

Sad the amount of people I see here ready to jump ship after 1 loss by 3 points at mile high. :pukeface:

Jesus you like to jump all over people's statements.

This is a philosophical discussion, not a real time "OMG WE NEED TO TRADE RUSSELL RIGHT NOW CAUSE HE'S TERRIBLE!!!"

It's a vaild question Seymour, can you build a SB caliber team around a QB like Russell with having to pay him 33M in 2020 going forward?

This year? Hell yes we need Russell, we need him bad. But big picture? I honestly don't know if we can get back to a SB with having to give him 33M+ a year, because I don't know if he can carry a team like other QB's making that kind of money compromising their cap.

Yes I do! Because this is a message board and that is all we have to go on!! And there are many here that are ready to bail on our QB and it's irritating.

I agree this is a "good discussion" to have, but in the end....the answer is always the same. Live with the deficiencies and bad games because the upside far outweighs them.
 

AROS

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kidhawk":13oht3y2 said:
...I mean if back to back Super Bowl appearances, a Super Bowl victory along with annual playoff appearances is an "experiment" then sign me up for more of that experiment.

I will join that club as well David! :2thumbs:
 

Sgt. Largent

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Seymour":yh1nwmjd said:
Sgt. Largent":yh1nwmjd said:
Seymour":yh1nwmjd said:
That was a mistake to post!!

After 1 game against likely the best Dline in the NFL you want to bail on the 1 player that has the ability to take over and get us W's?

Sad the amount of people I see here ready to jump ship after 1 loss by 3 points at mile high. :pukeface:

Jesus you like to jump all over people's statements.

This is a philosophical discussion, not a real time "OMG WE NEED TO TRADE RUSSELL RIGHT NOW CAUSE HE'S TERRIBLE!!!"

It's a vaild question Seymour, can you build a SB caliber team around a QB like Russell with having to pay him 33M in 2020 going forward?

This year? Hell yes we need Russell, we need him bad. But big picture? I honestly don't know if we can get back to a SB with having to give him 33M+ a year, because I don't know if he can carry a team like other QB's making that kind of money compromising their cap.

Yes I do! Because this is a message board and that is all we have to go on!! And there are many here that are ready to bail on our QB and it's irritating.

I agree this is a "good discussion" to have, but in the end....the answer is always the same. Live with the deficiencies and bad games because the upside far outweighs them.

All I'm asking it to take posts in context, and don't be so black and white with people's statements.

We can discuss in the gray areas, and this is one of the tough gray areas, it's not black and white. I can love Russell, and still have doubt as to whether we can win another SB with having to pay him so much.

I'm not a traitor, I shouldn't have to walk the plank.......I'm just a fan asking the bigger questions.
 

mrt144

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Seymour":v39t7ll7 said:
Sgt. Largent":v39t7ll7 said:
Seymour":v39t7ll7 said:
That was a mistake to post!!

After 1 game against likely the best Dline in the NFL you want to bail on the 1 player that has the ability to take over and get us W's?

Sad the amount of people I see here ready to jump ship after 1 loss by 3 points at mile high. :pukeface:

Jesus you like to jump all over people's statements.

This is a philosophical discussion, not a real time "OMG WE NEED TO TRADE RUSSELL RIGHT NOW CAUSE HE'S TERRIBLE!!!"

It's a vaild question Seymour, can you build a SB caliber team around a QB like Russell with having to pay him 33M in 2020 going forward?

This year? Hell yes we need Russell, we need him bad. But big picture? I honestly don't know if we can get back to a SB with having to give him 33M+ a year, because I don't know if he can carry a team like other QB's making that kind of money compromising their cap.

Yes I do! Because this is a message board and that is all we have to go on!! And there are many here that are ready to bail on our QB and it's irritating.

I agree this is a "good discussion" to have, but in the end....the answer is always the same. Live with the deficiencies and bad games because the upside far outweighs them.

And the bad games can be diminished if there's a bit more of a finger on the pulse of whats happening from the coaching staff - Okay, you have an inconsistent QB who can spit hot fire or hot turds - welp, what other tools are there in a 1 score game?
 

bandiger

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Seymour":waz2e2be said:
Sgt. Largent":waz2e2be said:
TwistedHusky":waz2e2be said:
Largent,

It really depends on what success is.

Is it reasonable to expect him to take you the SB? No.

But that is the same reason Aaron Rodgers will not be going to a SB. Even as a top 5 EVER QB. The realities of the cap means that a market rate QB cannot make the SB. The key to a SB is to have a high performing rookie (ideally 2nd or 3rd year) QB combined with a great defense. Or a veteran QB combined with a historic defense.

We did that. Denver did it. The Eagles did it.

QBs on their big contract make it too difficult for the team to pay for the other pieces they need. They not only cannot lure FAs, they often lose their best players to FA opportunities with bigger contracts.

Brady is the exception here, but Brady takes less than market rate and likely makes up for it with endorsement $$$. That money is then spent on other pieces of the team to keep it solid. For the most part, top rated QBs will generally make it to the playoffs but will not make SBs anymore.

So expecting a SB from Russ is folly. The NFL financial framework limits that option. Success is generally a very good regular season along with regular playoff successes over time. Based on the team makeup of a mediocre defense combined with a fairly average offense? Unlikely but possible if the offense improves.

The biggest problem for Russ is that we refuse to build our offense to leverage his strengths. We insist on trying to shoehorn him into something that focuses on his weaknesses instead. I still think he isn't Elite but he is much better than our offense is showing - and that is the fault of our strategy and tactics.

As much as it hurts me to say this, cause I love Russell, I tend to agree with you.

The only reason the Pats are in contention for SB's every year is Brady signs lowball contracts AND they have the greatest X's and O's/scheme coach of all time that can turn just about any no name player into a great piece in his scheme puzzle.

We don't have either of those things, and you know Russell and his agent are going to want Rodgers money. He's not taking a Brady discount to stay here so we have more cap to compete.

So yes, Pete and John will have the toughest decision of their careers to make next year with Russell. Continue to go down this road of being hamstrung on cap trying to reform an elite defense? Or try to find the next young stud QB so they can build the defense faster to try and get back to a SB.

That was a mistake to post!!

After 1 game against likely the best Dline in the NFL you want to bail on the 1 player that has the ability to take over and get us W's?

Sad the amount of people I see here ready to jump ship after 1 loss by 3 points at mile high. :pukeface:

hang-noose-fit-for-a-traitor.jpg

I'd probably dump Pete and John for thier crappy drafts and mismash message about run first team more than dump RW. Get a real offensive mind that doesn't tolerate having mixed signals every season post-Lynch.
 

fenderbender123

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Wilson is a very accurate passer, and his running ability is nice to have too. But ever since his first couple seasons, his ability to make magic with his scrambling ability has dropped off considerably. We rarely see it anymore. Defenses know how to contain that now, and when they do, you can tell you he starts to look uncomfortable.

He's obviously been working on being more of a true drop-back QB, and it shows, but he still has some learning to do. Somebody mentioned that he needs to climb the pocket more instead of trying to run outside. I agree, but I also wonder if his height (I know, I know) makes it difficult to climb the pocket because it surrounds him by giants and therefore he can't quite see the field as well and/or have a reasonable throwing lane. So there might be some tricky habits to break.

The solution might have to be to get creative with the offense. Design pass plays that designed scrambles. Have Russ drop back like it's a normal passing play, but then have do that thing where he spin-turns and runs toward the sideline in an arc. The offensive linemen can be ready and make special moves/blocks to ensure it's open. All the while the receivers suddenly break and start running toward that same sideline. I sound like Coach Klein drawing up a wild ass play. I have no idea what I'm talking about. My point is that they may need to get more creative lol.

But overall, he's still a good QB. Elite? Eh...I don't know what that means. But he's damn accurate, knows the offense well, and has running ability. While he may not be as good at surveying the field or knowing where he wants to throw the football during his drop-backs, there's no better QB in the game when it comes to taking advantage of play-action. So maybe we just need to...ya know...RUN THE BALL! BTW, whatever happened to the read option?
 

Seymour

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Sgt. Largent":1d83c8d8 said:
Seymour":1d83c8d8 said:
Sgt. Largent":1d83c8d8 said:
Seymour":1d83c8d8 said:
That was a mistake to post!!

After 1 game against likely the best Dline in the NFL you want to bail on the 1 player that has the ability to take over and get us W's?

Sad the amount of people I see here ready to jump ship after 1 loss by 3 points at mile high. :pukeface:

Jesus you like to jump all over people's statements.

This is a philosophical discussion, not a real time "OMG WE NEED TO TRADE RUSSELL RIGHT NOW CAUSE HE'S TERRIBLE!!!"

It's a vaild question Seymour, can you build a SB caliber team around a QB like Russell with having to pay him 33M in 2020 going forward?

This year? Hell yes we need Russell, we need him bad. But big picture? I honestly don't know if we can get back to a SB with having to give him 33M+ a year, because I don't know if he can carry a team like other QB's making that kind of money compromising their cap.

Yes I do! Because this is a message board and that is all we have to go on!! And there are many here that are ready to bail on our QB and it's irritating.

I agree this is a "good discussion" to have, but in the end....the answer is always the same. Live with the deficiencies and bad games because the upside far outweighs them.

All I'm asking it to take posts in context, and don't be so black and white with people's statements.

We can discuss in the gray areas, and this is one of the tough gray areas, it's not black and white. I can love Russell, and still have doubt as to whether we can win another SB with having to pay him so much.

I'm not a traitor, I shouldn't have to walk the plank.......I'm just a fan asking the bigger questions.

I have the same doubts we can win paying him that much and have posted threads on that topic!!

My issue is more that will Pete give him the tools to succeed and back off on defense spending enough? Will Pete get and give an OC that can take advantage if Wilson's skills rather than keep shoving the square peg into a round hole? I see Schotty as better, but not there yet, and doubt Pete will give him the latitude to let the offense take over.

My point: I do not believe Pete can win it all without an elite top 3 defense (nothing to do with Russ)

BTW....I know you are not a traitor....that was an extreme reaction to extreme "get rid of him" posts I'm reading.
 

Northwest Seahawk

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Back to back seasons of 500 ball does not look good for a QB that wants to be paid like he's the best in the league.
 

Northwest Seahawk

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Aros":1r6ylagg said:
xray":1r6ylagg said:
Wilson is not only NOT ELITE he is not even coachable anymore. Old coaches,new coaches same Wilson same results. Carroll has pampered him to the point of no return. He still does what he damn well wants to. He lost that game. I've been a Seahawks fan since the beginning 1976. Those of you that think Wilson is 'ALL THAT" don't understand the NFL.Wilson is now an easy QB to prepare for a defensive coordinator. BLITZ. He can't be a pocket passer because he is too short. His release is slow, His checkdowns are not there. His scrambling is not what it was. He is an average QB.that is regressing .Personally I would trade him before I would Earl Thomas. BYE BYE playoffs.

Well there's 14 seconds of my life I will never get back. :34853_doh:

There's some truth in that post like it or not.
 

semiahmoo

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Northwest Seahawk":1jx927o1 said:
Back to back seasons of 500 ball does not look good for a QB that wants to be paid like he's the best in the league.

Bingo. To those whining how some shouldn't be complaining about RW "after just one game" must have forgotten the last couple seasons.

RW is a good QB but he's being paid like he's a franchise one and he's not. With the right tools around him he can sometimes be great but there's not enough $$$ to pay him and pay to get all those tools.

Tough spot for the team. Won't likely truly change until Pete moves on after this season...
 

IndyHawk

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Sgt. Largent":3ppjws2e said:
Seymour":3ppjws2e said:
That was a mistake to post!!

After 1 game against likely the best Dline in the NFL you want to bail on the 1 player that has the ability to take over and get us W's?

Sad the amount of people I see here ready to jump ship after 1 loss by 3 points at mile high. :pukeface:

hang-noose-fit-for-a-traitor.jpg

Jesus you like to jump all over people's statements.

This is a philosophical discussion, not a real time "OMG WE NEED TO TRADE RUSSELL RIGHT NOW CAUSE HE'S TERRIBLE!!!"

It's a vaild question Seymour, can you build a SB caliber team around a QB like Russell with having to pay him 33M in 2020 going forward?

This year? Hell yes we need Russell, we need him bad. But big picture? I honestly don't know if we can get back to a SB with having to give him 33M+ a year, because I don't know if he can carry a team like other QB's making that kind of money compromising their cap.
He jumps like a fish out of the water over anything that doesn't support RW..
I'm a fan of the team and I don't like the idea of paying a QB 32-33 million per
so I can watch this team be 9-7 @ best with holes everywhere and he is losing
his speed fast ..Screw that.
There is more I'm going to say but for now I'll let it be.
 

Seymour

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IndyHawk":35wv1fkq said:
He jumps like a fish out of the water over anything that doesn't support RW..
I'm a fan of the team and I don't like the idea of paying a QB 32-33 million per
so I can watch this team be 9-7 @ best with holes everywhere and he is losing
his speed fast ..Screw that.
There is more I'm going to say but for now I'll let it be.

Big exaggeration and you know it. :177692:

I am critical of Russell often and have said several times just today that his play yesterday was a big reason for the loss.

I draw the line at dumping our franchise QB that took around 35 years to find. Simple as that. Is he worth 32+ million? Hell no, and I've said that too, but neither is Rodgers! Problem is we have no choice, as that is the going rate for any top QB right now.
 
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