We let go of Sherm and ET TOO SOON

[chris98251]

I don't have a problem with Pete doing things his way, but like all relationships it also has to adjust and evolve to the growth and losses as things change.

He has on paper done some of that investing in protecting Wilson with O line acquisitions, WR acquisitions, TE acquisitions, and RB acquisitions.

On defense he has went and got future stars or we hope at LB, went after players for his secondary, players for the D line.

Sure some will fall out, it not a matter of effort however.

What I have not seen is him adjust to the strength of his players like he did in the past, he adapted to what they did well, it feels like he is forcing things on defense wanting them to get his scheme rather then adapting to their skill sets as well as not trusting them,while strangle holding the offense rather then letting them show how well they could succeed.

This goes against what he was doing when he started out and doing things at that time his way.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Good points. I was real happy to see them coming out throwing the ball right away against the Bucs. Sure we handed them some points, but at least he didn't do the "we are a running team" thing. That was the #1 rushing defense in the league, and they came out and did what they should do, pass the ball.
He's a damn good coach, but absolutely his stubbornness gets in the way. But I'm sure MOST coaches are set in their ways. That's nothing new, but his results speak for themselves. Even if the guy drives us crazy at times. He's an NFL Coach, it happens. But he's also one of the best coaches in the NFL in the last several years. They are not just 7-2 because of Russ, he has a HUGE impact on the team overall. It's not a coincidence that they are likely playing above their expectations. Shoot, last year many said they would win 4-6 games, they won 10 and should have won that playoff game. Yes, his coaching DID contribute big time to that. He gets the most out of his players, way more than many coaches in the league imo. The fact that he has never won Coach of the Year is beyond stupid.
One play from back to back titles, and playoff appearances in almost every year w/this team.

 

[AROS]

Two malcontents. Meh. They were fantastic players for us in their prime but they became cancers when they forgot there is no "I" in "TEAM".

I will celebrate them when we put them in the Ring of Honor but not a moment before. 7-2 baby!

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Exactly. AFTER they retire, celebration time. Before then, no way. People say "you gotta' pull for Earl or Sherm"
I don't gotta' do anything.

 

[Russ Willstrong]

Sherm needed to prove himself right all the time even when he was in the wrong. He wasnt mature enough to deal with the past and became critical of management decisions going forward. He now appears humbled knowing teams werent lining up to pay top money for him.
Ultimately he chose ninners and is motivated to show up the Seahawks. He has finally bought in to the team mentality for the ninners and TBH Im happy for him. It wouldn't have been the same had he stuck around Seattle. He wanted to move on.

 

[nanomoz]

I'm glad you used all-caps, otherwise we all totally would have missed the meaning of the thread title.

 

[getnasty]

They were still great players but it was time to part ways. Both guys were salty with the staff and front office and in Shermans case he was becoming toxic to the rest of the team. Couple that with having to pay Russell and Bobby it was time to move on.

 

[Mad Dog]

That is a laughable assertion.

Bill adapts his strategy to his personnel. He in fact changes his gameplan to target opponent weaknesses and exploit them.

Bill's philosophy is the very definition of fluid.

Pete has always won by 'outathleting' the other team. In college, in the pros. Because he has an amazing eye for talent, is a fantastic talent developer, and a tremendous motivator. Mon-Sat he is the best coach in the league.

But he is a terrible, terrible gameday coach. And he squandered years of great defense (hence the issue with the great defensive players being a problem here) by fielding a 'barely there' offense for close to 5 years. The issue was that he did not change his philosophy when his roster no longer supported that philosophy.

He doggedly stuck with it, despite all the incredible resources that would have produced for him had he leveraged them. You win championships and playoff berths by riding your best players. Pete rode a tired game philosophy that only worked because he had one of the best QBs in the league and one of the best defenses in the league.

Any even then, it wasn't enough because we didn't bother to get good at playing offense for 4 quarters so our doors were blown off the moment we played playoff caliber teams in playoff games that mattered.

Pete ball worked when he had the people for it. When his people changed, he refused to change with it. That was the problem. Now he has no choice, but the great defenders are gone. We would have been better with them.

Hard to say Pete Ball is working less well when we are off to our second best start in the Carroll era.
You see his refusal to change as a weakness but I think it is a strength.

I also disagree with the assertion that he intentionally tried to field a "barely there" offense. I think he tried as much as possible to field the type of offense he likes: tough running, balanced, explosive but efficient passing. That has been his desire every year. But I just don't think for several years we had the personnel or the coaching staff to make it happen. Solari and Schotty have been a big upgrade to QB and OL technique. We now have 2 quality RB's, 2 Quality WR's, a quality TE (when healthy), OL depth and an MVP level QB. It's what Pete has been trying for all along.

Problem is that it isn't easy to build a complete team. This year the offense is figuring it out but the defense is struggling. I don't think Norton is the right guy for DC. I don't think we have enough CB depth. I think we are lacking an explosive bendy EDGE. I think Wagner and Wright are quite clearly on the downsides of their careers. I think Blair needs a year of seasoning.

I think having ET and Sherm would have helped but would not have made this unit great and I expect i'd see about 50 sideline tussles between Sherm and Norton. Maybe even fisticuffs.

 

[scutterhawk]

Pete is the best Seahawk coach of all time. There is no disputing that. I don't want him gone, even through the frustration with him.

But he is also more concerned with doing things his way than doing things the way that work.

He is willing to lose doing things the 'Pete way'

Want proof?
.

I have "Proof", it's called....7 & 2, OH AND, Coach Bill ( "Insist On Doing Shit His Way" ) Belicheck & his Patriots just LOST to the Ravens...You know, the same team that handed "Stubborn Pete Carroll" one of our two losses.
Edit; We are 7 & 2 WITHOUT the help of "Sour Grapes" Sherman & Malcontent Thomas.

 

[pittpnthrs]

Pete got rid of the players that were no longer "on board" and we became a better team because of it.

Did we though? Our defense is surely worse and we are no better than one and dones in the playoffs, so I would say we are no better off. I'm sure Pete is relieved that he got rid of a couple players that publicly called him out on mistakes he was making, but getting rid of those players doesnt rid the team of the mistakes.

 

[pittpnthrs]

How are we better?

Sherm and ET were right. They were understandably pissed off because half the game was the defense pulling us out of the fire, while the offense was content to punt or kick FGs for a full half. It was garbage football.

And it was a dumb strategy, because we got our doors blown off in the playoffs every time we played a team that was not a wildcard team.

They were pissed off because they knew we could score points and chose not to even try. Just put everything on the defense, take the air out of the ball and keep it close for the 4th. It won lots of games in the regular season but utterly failed us in getting ready for the playoffs.

And the annoying thing was we COULD score. When we lost our leads or got too far behind, we often immediately mounted a drive to score a TD. We as fans saw that, you think a defensive player that spent their whole lives understanding football didn't? Of course they were irritated.

Let's not spin what Carroll did as a success. After that SB loss we chose not to bother with an offense, that paired with that defense would have been a regular in divisional and conference games. And we had the ability to have an offense because when we needed to have a shootout we often did (remember the Steeler games?).

Carroll squandered the opportunity to win playoff games with a great QB because he is a dinosaur that wants to win games with defense and running the ball. Nobody sane wants him gone, but let's not pretend we couldn't have done better with the roster we had.

Now we have a garbage defense so we have no choice, we have to score 30 or we won't win. Amazingly, letting our QB throw the damn ball in the 1st and 2nd quarters and bothering to try to TDs? Is resulting in games we score 30+ and win. We had years where Wilson, one of the best QBs in the league, was throwing for 30 yards in a game at the half. Not even against great defenses.

They were right to be pissed off about because we were peeing away our SB window, while half-killing our defensive players from exhaustion. Now the window is closed, so I can just enjoy the shootouts. But those years of 'Pete ball' were stupid and some of the best defensive players to ever wear a Seahawk uniform knew it.

Amen

 

[scutterhawk]

Pete got rid of the players that were no longer "on board" and we became a better team because of it.

Did we though? Our defense is surely worse and we are no better than one and dones in the playoffs, so I would say we are no better off. I'm sure Pete is relieved that he got rid of a couple players that publicly called him out on mistakes he was making, but getting rid of those players doesnt rid the team of the mistakes.

Being selfish malcontents that aired their dirty laundry in public, calling out & flipping off Coaches is NOT being a Team Player, nor is running up to and whoring himself to Garrett was beyond PATHETIC.

Getting shed of malcontents QUICKLY is the Bill Bellicheck MO, yet when Pete Carroll (the Coach who stood behind them) has his belly full of their blather, sends their asses packing...I don't see the difference in either of these two Coaches, other than Pete put up with sh*t longer than Billicheat would have.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

amen

 

[Seymour]

We got rid of cancer too soon!!! :roll:

 

[Tusc2000]

Pete is the best Seahawk coach of all time. There is no disputing that. I don't want him gone, even through the frustration with him.

But he is also more concerned with doing things his way than doing things the way that work.

He is willing to lose doing things the 'Pete way' instead of doing things that way that wins. .

My eyes started to bleed at this point.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

7-2, god it sucks winning all the time.

 

[TwistedHusky]

Any team playing 4 backup QBs in 9 games that is even above average, better have at least 6 wins.

It isn't a stretch that a team with an MVP level QB should be at 7-2 in nine games given near half our opponents were trotting out backup QBs and some of the other teams we played include the Bengals, Browns, and Bucs. Not exactly a murderers row there.

Still we have a rough stretch ahead and I think with this offense producing 30points a game, we stand a good chance at them. But the only path to victory is avoiding that stupid Peteball that screwed us for years, and even Pete knows it now. Too bad he didn't learn that when we had a good defense. That is what the OP is saying....with the great defensive players we lost, we would have been a lot better.

 

[KiwiHawk]

The OP is crystal ball gazing.

At the time we got rid of Sherm and ET they were coming off injuries and we just paid Kam Chancellor a lot of money that we didn't benefit from due to a career-ending injury.

Who knows if Sherm and ET were going to come back and if they were would they be worth top dollar or would they be slowed?

Factor in them both being narcissistic head cases, factor in them both wanting top dollar, and you have a potential recipe for disaster, which our front office deftly avoided. Whatever happens after that moment doesn't change the fact that the decision in the moment was the correct one.

 

[pittpnthrs]

Getting shed of malcontents QUICKLY is the Bill Bellicheck MO, yet when Pete Carroll (the Coach who stood behind them) has his belly full of their blather, sends their asses packing...I don't see the difference in either of these two Coaches, other than Pete put up with sh*t longer than Billicheat would have.

Bill would have gotten more out of them. When its all said and done with and everybody looks back at that team, the realization that we only got one title is somewhat sickening in the grand scheme of things.

 

[scutterhawk]

Getting shed of malcontents QUICKLY is the Bill Bellicheck MO, yet when Pete Carroll (the Coach who stood behind them) has his belly full of their blather, sends their asses packing...I don't see the difference in either of these two Coaches, other than Pete put up with sh*t longer than Billicheat would have.

Bill would have gotten more out of them. When its all said and done with and everybody looks back at that team, the realization that we only got one title is somewhat sickening in the grand scheme of things.

The only LOB'r that Billy took in was Browner, and he wasn't a Long Timer with the Pats...Ever wonder why he didn't jump at the chance to take Sherman or Thomas under his wing?.....I think you already know the answer. :stirthepot:
AND, you can theorize until hell freezes over, BUT, you don't KNOW for a fact that he wouldn't have sent their asses packing as soon as their sniveling started, he doesn't put up with shit from his players, Belicheck is a "My Way Or The Highway" "No Nonsense" Coach.
Tom Brady is probably the ONLY player that MIGHT get away with arguing with him BEHIND THE SCENES, & out of Public ear shout.