We're sitting at about 59 million

[hawksfansinceday1]

Being critical of John and Pete, this defense should already be fixed, but they did not draft well on the defensive side of the ball from 2015-2018...........which is why our defense isn't anywhere near where it needs to be to get back to a SB.

Yes indeed. Notice you didn't include Collier in your list. Think they saw all DEs go off the board and panicked a bit. Willing to give him an offseason and a healthy TC but if he's persona non grata most of next year it's bust city imo.

I read that PC/JS wanted to take Montez Sweat, he then came off, so they went with the best available thinking that since he was an older draftee that maybe he could help in Year One.

No one thought we'd be getting a Bosa in our first rounder...but I bet if you line up the players at that position from that year and adjust for number of games, he ranks near the bottom with three tackles.

Calling it now. This guy's a Solomon Thomas that we're stuck with for dead cap, but probably won't contribute any more than ST did.

Sadly I suspect the Solomon Thomas comp is likely.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Being critical of John and Pete, this defense should already be fixed, but they did not draft well on the defensive side of the ball from 2015-2018...........which is why our defense isn't anywhere near where it needs to be to get back to a SB.

Yes indeed. Notice you didn't include Collier in your list. Think they saw all DEs go off the board and panicked a bit. Willing to give him an offseason and a healthy TC but if he's persona non grata most of next year it's bust city imo.

I can't include Collier when no one knew he was ever on the field.

Halfway through the season when everyone and their grandma knew that Ansah wasn't working out, I would have rather just stuck Collier in the game to at least give him experience for the long term.

Instead we have a 1st round pick that got hurt, missed too much camp and never recovered to do a damn thing all year.

Collier came back 9/15 Week 2. He was active in 11 regular season games. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... #all_stats

Everyone's saying he just needs more camp. At this point, Collier has the experience that camp tries to prepare guys for. And regardless how he does in preseason, he still will make the roster given his dead cap hit. Same as last year.

They have to make the best of it. Maybe they put him on ST to gain more experience while serving as a No. 3 defensively.

Not everyone, right from Pete's mouth when asked why Collier wasn't performing well or a healthy scratch.

He said the same thing about Blair, missed too much camp, etc.

Of course he's being protective and diplomatic.....when in reality we know what's up. Collier just wasn't good enough even months after his injury recovery to get on the field with one of the most athletically deficient lines in the league desperate for someone to make plays.

 

[SantaClaraHawk]

Of course he's being protective and diplomatic.....when in reality we know what's up. Collier just wasn't good enough even months after his injury recovery to get on the field with one of the most athletically deficient lines in the league desperate for someone to make plays.

Agree fully. And it's not just him.

It's that a lot of our guys, especially on D, end up being just "depth" guys with excuses for it. Oh, but they can play special teams. Oh, but they can help in sub packages with help from others. The issue is, they signed them all with the expectation they'd be starters on the D they want, and it shouldn't take three years to figure out that they don't fit scheme.

 

[HawkStrong]

Of course he's being protective and diplomatic.....when in reality we know what's up. Collier just wasn't good enough even months after his injury recovery to get on the field with one of the most athletically deficient lines in the league desperate for someone to make plays.

Agree fully. And it's not just him.

It's that a lot of our guys, especially on D, end up being just "depth" guys with excuses for it. Oh, but they can play special teams. Oh, but they can help in sub packages with help from others. The issue is, they signed them all with the expectation they'd be starters on the D they want, and it shouldn't take three years to figure out that they don't fit scheme.

This just isn't true, and PC/JS have stated as much. Not every draft pick or FA is brought into be a starter.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Of course he's being protective and diplomatic.....when in reality we know what's up. Collier just wasn't good enough even months after his injury recovery to get on the field with one of the most athletically deficient lines in the league desperate for someone to make plays.

Agree fully. And it's not just him.

It's that a lot of our guys, especially on D, end up being just "depth" guys with excuses for it. Oh, but they can play special teams. Oh, but they can help in sub packages with help from others. The issue is, they signed them all with the expectation they'd be starters on the D they want, and it shouldn't take three years to figure out that they don't fit scheme.

This just isn't true, and PC/JS have stated as much. Not every draft pick or FA is brought into be a starter.

What?

Collier wasn't a 5th round pick for depth, he was a 1st rounder................so if you draft a DE in the first round? He better damn well be a 70-80% snaps a game playmaker. If not, that's a failure.

 

[SantaClaraHawk]

Collier wasn't a 5th round pick for depth, he was a 1st rounder................so if you draft a DE in the first round? He better damn well be a 70-80% snaps a game playmaker. If not, that's a failure.

Again, agree. Collier was paid over $9M in guaranteed because he signed here because the assumption was that he could help in Year One. The signing bonus all but guarantees that he's on the roster whatever his performance is, and I hope he succeeds, but realistically he could remain at a performance that'd get UDFAs/lower rounds bounced.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Collier wasn't a 5th round pick for depth, he was a 1st rounder................so if you draft a DE in the first round? He better damn well be a 70-80% snaps a game playmaker. If not, that's a failure.

Again, agree. Collier was paid over $9M in guaranteed because he signed here because the assumption was that he could help in Year One. The signing bonus all but guarantees that he's on the roster whatever his performance is, and I hope he succeeds, but realistically he could remain at a performance that'd get UDFAs/lower rounds bounced.

Disagree, not at DE. DE's, like RB's, DT's and LB's can make an immediate impact because they don't have as much to learn as positions like WR, QB, DB, etc.

So you can make all the excuses you want for Collier, and I will give him a little leeway for missing a lot of camp which set his development and fitness back.

But no excuses for him for the last 1/3rd of the season and the playoffs, he should have been coming on and making some plays. He was a healthy inactive for the GB playoff game.

That's as damning as it gets.

 

[BASF]

Collier wasn't a 5th round pick for depth, he was a 1st rounder................so if you draft a DE in the first round? He better damn well be a 70-80% snaps a game playmaker. If not, that's a failure.

Again, agree. Collier was paid over $9M in guaranteed because he signed here because the assumption was that he could help in Year One. The signing bonus all but guarantees that he's on the roster whatever his performance is, and I hope he succeeds, but realistically he could remain at a performance that'd get UDFAs/lower rounds bounced.

Disagree, not at DE. DE's, like RB's, DT's and LB's can make an immediate impact because they don't have as much to learn as positions like WR, QB, DB, etc.

So you can make all the excuses you want for Collier, and I will give him a little leeway for missing a lot of camp which set his development and fitness back.

But no excuses for him for the last 1/3rd of the season and the playoffs, he should have been coming on and making some plays. He was a healthy inactive for the GB playoff game.

That's as damning as it gets.

Learning technique during camp is a big deal. In the NFL you are going up against guys who are taught how to negate your physical talents and you need technique to make an impact. My biggest concern with Collier is he should have been learning technique during the time he was inactive and it seems that he did not. That speaks to a lack of commitment to his craft, which I would say is more than damning. Hopefully, he gets a clue this offseason and steps it up.

 

[SantaClaraHawk]

Hey BASF. Thought I was the only one on the board here so it's nice to have company.

Anyway, the way PC/JS appear to be committed to is picking mid-rounders, UDFAs, FAs on rentals and hoping it works out. It has for them before, but that depends on them relentlessly churning the roster.

You can't do that with first rounders; they cost so much in dead cap that it's cheaper to keep 'em even while paying them twice as much (as will happen with Collier).

 

[BASF]

Hey BASF. Thought I was the only one on the board here so it's nice to have company.

I actually left San Jose last year, so you may be the only one at this point, but I have used this name way too long to change it.

 

[SantaClaraHawk]

There's actually a fair number of Hawks fans around. We don't have the "Seattle Faithful" presence that the 9ers apparently do, but we have our bars after all.

That said, the Hawks' philosophy of roster churn is a thing. They bring in a bunch of mid rounders or lower or UDFAs and see how they stick. The thing is, they then make exceptions like Shaquem. People don't like that I bring up Shaquem, but fact is he's a fifth rounder going into his third year with one-half sack to show for it.

If they want to run this roster this way (which has had success) there can't be exceptions for this or that, because what I'm seeing throughout most of the D is exceptions and qualified statements, like give this guy another year; that'll be his breakout one. Or we knew BBK was too small but hey plays ST.

And so three years later, well here we are.

 

[chris98251]

There's actually a fair number of Hawks fans around. We don't have the "Seattle Faithful" presence that the 9ers apparently do, but we have our bars after all.

That said, the Hawks' philosophy of roster churn is a thing. They bring in a bunch of mid rounders or lower or UDFAs and see how they stick. The thing is, they then make exceptions like Shaquem. People don't like that I bring up Shaquem, but fact is he's a fifth rounder going into his third year with one-half sack to show for it.

If they want to run this roster this way (which has had success) there can't be exceptions for this or that, because what I'm seeing throughout most of the D is exceptions and qualified statements, like give this guy another year; that'll be his breakout one. Or we knew BBK was too small but hey plays ST.

And so three years later, well here we are.

Still hating on Shequem for three years running ? They are just figuring out how to use him, he has been a special team ace, I would have used him more as a SS but that's me.

You can't blame the player when the Coaches are not able to use a certain player to his strengths, that and he has had some pretty good players in front of him.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Collier wasn't a 5th round pick for depth, he was a 1st rounder................so if you draft a DE in the first round? He better damn well be a 70-80% snaps a game playmaker. If not, that's a failure.

Again, agree. Collier was paid over $9M in guaranteed because he signed here because the assumption was that he could help in Year One. The signing bonus all but guarantees that he's on the roster whatever his performance is, and I hope he succeeds, but realistically he could remain at a performance that'd get UDFAs/lower rounds bounced.

Disagree, not at DE. DE's, like RB's, DT's and LB's can make an immediate impact because they don't have as much to learn as positions like WR, QB, DB, etc.

So you can make all the excuses you want for Collier, and I will give him a little leeway for missing a lot of camp which set his development and fitness back.

But no excuses for him for the last 1/3rd of the season and the playoffs, he should have been coming on and making some plays. He was a healthy inactive for the GB playoff game.

That's as damning as it gets.

Learning technique during camp is a big deal. In the NFL you are going up against guys who are taught how to negate your physical talents and you need technique to make an impact. My biggest concern with Collier is he should have been learning technique during the time he was inactive and it seems that he did not. That speaks to a lack of commitment to his craft, which I would say is more than damning. Hopefully, he gets a clue this offseason and steps it up.

I will certainly give Collier another camp and preseason to prove to us that he's worthy of being a #1 pick...........which I understand wasn't his fault.

But he was a typical head scratcher that most draft scouts had going in the late 2nd or even 3rd round, and this year proved they were probably right.

But we'll see.

 

[Appyhawk]

Chris: "They are just figuring out how to use him, he has been a special team ace, I would have used him more as a SS but that's me.

You can't blame the player when the Coaches are not able to use a certain player to his strengths, that and he has had some pretty good players in front of him."

Checking the YES box. With Kendricks questionable for next year the might have an easier time finding plays for him. They know he can play. The question becomes can he play enough to make keeping him an equitable arrangement? I would like to see him stick and be used as safety depth in addition to the other stuff. Speed is never a bad thing.

 

[SantaClaraHawk]

We're all giving Collier a chance, not because of ability he's shown, but because we're sunk for dead cap with him.

The overall problem is that we're just stuck with depth pieces versus those we really need.

 

[HawkStrong]

Of course he's being protective and diplomatic.....when in reality we know what's up. Collier just wasn't good enough even months after his injury recovery to get on the field with one of the most athletically deficient lines in the league desperate for someone to make plays.

Agree fully. And it's not just him.

It's that a lot of our guys, especially on D, end up being just "depth" guys with excuses for it. Oh, but they can play special teams. Oh, but they can help in sub packages with help from others. The issue is, they signed them all with the expectation they'd be starters on the D they want, and it shouldn't take three years to figure out that they don't fit scheme.

This just isn't true, and PC/JS have stated as much. Not every draft pick or FA is brought into be a starter.

What?

Collier wasn't a 5th round pick for depth, he was a 1st rounder................so if you draft a DE in the first round? He better damn well be a 70-80% snaps a game playmaker. If not, that's a failure.

It's from PC/JS's mouth. They don't look at draft picks like that.

 

[SantaClaraHawk]

It's from PC/JS's mouth. They don't look at draft picks like that.

Then maybe PC/JS need to evaluate that. We've needed a stronger d-line for what, five years now? And all I keep hearing are stories about how this guy or that guy is gonna be next year's star, just more camp, or hurt, just more camp, or whatever.

We need people who can actually start. Without help. And in PC's scheme and with our draft position, that means at minimum basically picking brawlers of size, not trying to make them fit in with schemes that they don't, and when they don't, plugging them with yet more rentals or UDFA/FA throwaways.

 

[Largent80]

This draft is NOT for any DL....There's maybe 2 worth mentioning. This draft has a TON of very good WR's and OL's and guess what we need?

Yup....We need OL in spite of what anyone says. Draft one of these great Centers and at least one Guard, it would be so foolish not to.

DL will be free agents.

 

[SantaClaraHawk]

I agree we need OL. But I'd say it's even harder to get them under this philosophy.

(Please JC just trade down the first rounder.)

OLs are notoriously hard to pick, however.

 

[Largent80]

No, they aren't hard to pick. It's where you pick them. We were lucky that we sucked enough to draft Walter Jones and he was a generational talent.

Left Tackles are a Godsend and like buying a winning lottery ticket.

This draft has a LOT of good Centers and Guards which just happens to be the need of this team and it just so happens we have a first and 2 seconds and a 3rd.

It's time for this team to draft OL for the future. PERIOD.