Ongoing RB Preseason Thread

[EverydayImRusselin]

The case for CJ is you can line him up behind Russ and then roll him out wide and have a total mismatch on a LB. Exactly what they did vs NE and it was amazing.

 

[Coug_Hawk08]

Remember when CJ made the Patriots look silly? He took over the game, it was awesome.

great game he had, agreed.

Show me a game where AC was a real difference maker. .

The last regular season game of the year, when all the other RBs were out except Collins and Rawls. Collins averaged 8 yards a carry, Rawls averaged 1.8

Maybe not the huge "game changing" ability you are talking about, but it made a difference in a game we won by 2 points.

ACs hands are as good as CJs? Cmon man, this is getting silly.

dead serious, unless you haven't been paying attention, you sure don't have any evidence AC's hands are any worse, he's caught 8 out of 8 catchable is PS, whoever writes the camp reports cited AC's "incredible catch even for a WR" in 7 on 7's. it is by no means a "silly" assertion his hands could be equal.


The case for CJ might make more sense if he was a return whiz on special teams, or was needed/used more as a conventional WR, then it makes more sense to keep him, even if he's only available half the time, (maybe) but I wasn't aware he was used in those ways.

So, you are comparing their hands based on a 7 on 7 practice write up and 2 preseason games? He also laid an egg in the first game, dropped a pass he really should have made. I think you are protecting him with subjective 'catchable' passes. Are you considering anything else like, type of pass, route, coverage etc?

I think the comparison is hilarious, but that's just me. They aren't on the same level as receivers, it's pretty plain, but ok to disagree. I know you are a huge fan.

 

[ACFan]

So, you are comparing their hands based on a 7 on 7 practice write up and 2 preseason games?

I'm using all available data, and yes, took the opportunity to use someone else' words rather than my own, someone who should be in a better position to make such comments. "incredible catch even for a WR."

I think you are protecting him with subjective 'catchable' passes. .

Not at all, I sharpening the focus on what the truth is. You said "dropped" twice now I think, the one target out of 9 that was not a completion, as if it had been catchable. I think you are criticizing his vertical leaping ability, not his hands. Micheal Jordan might have been able get more than two fingers on it, but AC couldn't. Very unfair to call it a "drop". How about stating the truth about it? it was an awful pass from Austin Davis. Please provide a gif of the play if you have it, to go along with your description of "dropped"

I think the comparison is hilarious,.

Then I think that shows your bias, or your misunderstanding of what I said.

The 1st thing I said was "hands appear to be equal" I stand by that comment. The other comparison I made was the ability to "do the fundamental work of a 3rd down back" (i.e pass protect, catch, YAC to get 1st downs.)

I am not making comparisons as a conventional WR, or who would be best at running a 40 yard wheel route out of the backfield. I think we can safely give that to Prosise.

Looking at last year stats for the regular season, Collins had 11 catches from 11 targets, 8 FDs. Prosise had 17 catches from 19 targets, also for 8 FDs.

Now I could call the two incompletions of CJ's "drops" if I wanted, knowing you probably can't find a gif of them to challenge it, but I won't do that. I understand of CJ's 19 targets last year, some were deeper more complex routes than AC would be asked to run. I acknowledge that.

Just using the facts we have, Collins hands appear no worse. I think it's not so much a crazy assertion, as it is simply an idea you don't want to hear, wouldn't expect to hear, and don't want to be true.

If the choice is between a guy who can be depended upon week in and week out to provide solid 3rd down back work, and a guy who can do that PLUS provide an added element, then of course I'd agree with you and I'd pick the latter guy.

I just don't think that is the choice we have. Take off the negative glasses and you'll see AC has been, and could be, pretty darn effective as a 3rd down back for us if it comes to that.

 

[Thepeelsessions]

Lots of good conversation in here. Here's my take. I think Carson continues to show up in the final two games. I'm not calling this, but I wouldn't be surprised at all, come week 3, seeing Lacy completely crash and burn, both Prosise and Rawls injured leading to the release or trade of one of them, and Carson taking over the backfield.

 

[Cyrus12]

Think our season success depends on the health and status of our rbs.

 

[vin.couve12]

The idea, both in players you acquire and in players you keep, is to get better. Some of that is what you get right now and the other part is an educated bet on larger improvements. You wrap it all up in a somewhat variable ROI that has very little if any chance of a loss, but where return margin varies. Carson and Prosise represent much larger net gains. Rawls and Lacy are essentially the fallback so that you don't take a net loss. McKissic could really show up in the return game, and while Davis has shown to be sort of a Rawls light, both Davis and AC will never really net you more than the mean. Davis probably having the better chance of going over the mean.

 

[vin.couve12]

And again, there's value in ST here too so McKissic might literally have more of a roster impact.

 

[ACFan]

The idea, both in players you acquire and in players you keep, is to get better. Some of that is what you get right now and the other part is an educated bet on larger improvements. You wrap it all up in a somewhat variable ROI that has very little if any chance of a loss, but where return margin varies. Carson and Prosise represent much larger net gains. Rawls and Lacy are essentially the fallback so that you don't take a net loss. McKissic could really show up in the return game, and while Davis has shown to be sort of a Rawls light, both Davis and AC will never really net you more than the mean. Davis probably having the better chance of going over the mean.

Interesting that you'd compare our RBs to financial investments. I see Prosise as exactly the kind of high risk, high reward investment that has caused many an investor to fling themselves off high rooftops. Not that I don't understand the enticement, I do.

But here's a guy that has never been able to stay healthy at any level of football, and we gamble a 3rd round pick that he can stay healthy at the highest level of football? well, I guess it could work out.

Just seems like an Oakland Raider kind of move under Al Davis, a desperate attempt to find an advantage, because you are not really good across the board as a team. Seems an odd way for us to do things, in a team that seemingly is being built the right way otherwise.

 

[ACFan]

Lots of good conversation in here. Here's my take. I think Carson continues to show up in the final two games. I'm not calling this, but I wouldn't be surprised at all, come week 3, seeing Lacy completely crash and burn, both Prosise and Rawls injured leading to the release or trade of one of them, and Carson taking over the backfield.

I've had similar thoughts.

Lacy, Rawls, Prosise. I think there is a 10% chance we keep all 3, and a 10% we lose all 3. Most likely, we will lose one or two of them. It might not work out that way at all, but using history as a guide, this is the best prediction I can come up with:

Lacy and Carson as 1a and 1b to start the year. Who starts is kind of irrelevant, but I expect Carson to share at least 50% of the tradtional RB duties.

Collins will be the 3rd down back, and ready to fill in either of Lacy or Carson's spot as needed throughout the year. Davis is 4th / PS. Either or both of Rawls and Prosise, IR or cut.

That could be completely wrong, just seems the most probable senario to me, based on history and skill sets.

Collins fumbles again, I think he's automatically history, another Rawls or Prosise injury, then I'd think very close to the same thing. In essence, I guess I'm saying it's more likley either Rawls or Prosise stay injured, then it is for AC to have another stupid fumble. A lot still to play out.

 

[ACFan]

All our RBs have been stuffed or lost yards on plays that were not well blocked this PS.

IMO, only Rawls and Prosise have the physical skills needed to avoid serious penetration, or
create on their own when nothing is there. They are also the two most likley to lose yards in the attempt, or be unavailable due to injury, so what is the real overall worth?

The gameplan for championship winning offenses is to have well blocked plays and RBs who can be depended upon to take advantage of it, week after week. I think Lacy, Carson and Collins are all capable of that, maybe Davis (need to see more). We can win a SB with those 4 IMO. It'd make me nervous to be in the middle of the playoff run, depending heavily on Rawls' and Prosise's availability, or production when playing hurt.

 

[EverydayImRusselin]

Lots of good conversation in here. Here's my take. I think Carson continues to show up in the final two games. I'm not calling this, but I wouldn't be surprised at all, come week 3, seeing Lacy completely crash and burn, both Prosise and Rawls injured leading to the release or trade of one of them, and Carson taking over the backfield.

I've had similar thoughts.

Lacy, Rawls, Prosise. I think there is a 10% chance we keep all 3, and a 10% we lose all 3. Most likely, we will lose one or two of them. It might not work out that way at all, but using history as a guide, this is the best prediction I can come up with:

Lacy and Carson as 1a and 1b to start the year. Who starts is kind of irrelevant, but I expect Carson to share at least 50% of the tradtional RB duties.

Collins will be the 3rd down back, and ready to fill in either of Lacy or Carson's spot as needed throughout the year. Davis is 4th / PS. Either or both of Rawls and Prosise, IR or cut.

That could be completely wrong, just seems the most probable senario to me, based on history and skill sets.

Collins fumbles again, I think he's automatically history, another Rawls or Prosise injury, then I'd think very close to the same thing. In essence, I guess I'm saying it's more likley either Rawls or Prosise stay injured, then it is for AC to have another stupid fumble. A lot still to play out.

I can't make myself believe you truly think Collins is going to be kept and 1 of Rawls or Prosise will be cut. Now I will go on the record stating, i'm not confident in Rawls/Lacy/Prosise ability to stay healthy for a full season, but that is where you keep Carson. If you do lose 4 RB, not really a whole lot you can do. I also believe if we lose all these RB and have to rely on Collins, we are probably not going to go very far in the playoffs.

 

[ACFan]

I can't make myself believe you truly think Collins is going to be kept and 1 of Rawls or Prosise will be cut. Now I will go on the record stating, i'm not confident in Rawls/Lacy/Prosise ability to stay healthy for a full season, but that is where you keep Carson. If you do lose 4 RB, not really a whole lot you can do. I also believe if we lose all these RB and have to rely on Collins, we are probably not going to go very far in the playoffs.

I think you express a popular, but flawed opinion on the board that undervalues Collins and overvalues others.

Counting all of last season and this preseason, Collins has caught 19 of 20 targets (with one uncatchable) for a high percentage of FDs. but that doesn't seem to count in his favor?

The last 4 games of last season he averaged 5 YPC, including 8 ypc against SF, a game Rawls avg 2 ypc. but we should forget that and how everyone finished last year?

Last week, AC averaged almost 6 yards a carry against the 2nd and 3rd team defense, the same 2nd and 3rd team defense that Davis went backwards against in 5 carries, but that doesn't matter either? Davis wins that?

92 yards of total offense last week, pretty good chunk more than anyone else, but somehow it's the same as zero yards, because it was Collins?

The one guy who can keep getting up and playing, the one guy who doesn't get injured and has perfect attendance for everything, when everyone else has durability issues, but that's not a check in his column?

It seems only Collins has to prove himself at this point, and no matter what he does, it would seem to be a tough chore to do for some posters, seemingly impossible.

I blame myself for yapping about it too much. I make arguments that I feel deserve to be made, for my guy's sake. I never take or make these debates personal, I respect every poster and their opinions on here.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Collins has his moments, but overall hasn't been impressive at all. I do think he has good hands out of the backfield. But he clearly is way down on the depth chart, and is likely to not make the cut. That is IF Rawls/Prosise/Lacy/Carson all stay healthy. And that's a big if for Rawls and Prosise.

 

[ACFan]

I can't make myself believe you truly think Collins is going to be kept and 1 of Rawls or Prosise will be cut. .

To answer your question specifically. I certainly believe it's a plausible scenario, depending how everyone's health and performance looks in PS3, which is supposed to be the best dress rehearsal for the season. I'm leaning towards a likely scenario. JMO.

But we are all going to just have to sit back and see how it goes.

CPC was gushing about how great the RB competition was going to be this PS, so far Lacy, Rawls and Davis have shown me very little, Prosise seems to be exempt from competing and isn't required to show anything, and Collins is killing the garbage work and no one seems to care.

So we'll just see what happens.

 

[ACFan]

That is IF Rawls/Prosise/Lacy/Carson all stay healthy. And that's a big if for Rawls and Prosise.

and as it keeps happening, people keep agreeing with me in a backhanded fashion.

I'll take it, it's pretty much exactly what I'm saying.

 

[vin.couve12]

The idea, both in players you acquire and in players you keep, is to get better. Some of that is what you get right now and the other part is an educated bet on larger improvements. You wrap it all up in a somewhat variable ROI that has very little if any chance of a loss, but where return margin varies. Carson and Prosise represent much larger net gains. Rawls and Lacy are essentially the fallback so that you don't take a net loss. McKissic could really show up in the return game, and while Davis has shown to be sort of a Rawls light, both Davis and AC will never really net you more than the mean. Davis probably having the better chance of going over the mean.

Interesting that you'd compare our RBs to financial investments. I see Prosise as exactly the kind of high risk, high reward investment that has caused many an investor to fling themselves off high rooftops. Not that I don't understand the enticement, I do.

But here's a guy that has never been able to stay healthy at any level of football, and we gamble a 3rd round pick that he can stay healthy at the highest level of football? well, I guess it could work out.

Just seems like an Oakland Raider kind of move under Al Davis, a desperate attempt to find an advantage, because you are not really good across the board as a team. Seems an odd way for us to do things, in a team that seemingly is being built the right way otherwise.

You're missing the point while being enamoured. This is not even remotely an Al Davis method. Rawls and Lacy represent knowns and afford you some leeway. Collins, not being capable of beating the mean, becomes irrelevant with Lacy and Rawls in the picture. Carson and Prosise, both Pete's enamored draft picks, are not going anywhere. Your best shot is injury like last year.

 

[JGfromtheNW]

Really appreciate the conversation going on in here. The Seahawks have found themselves really deep at RB this year, and it's going to suck letting some of them go. Wouldn't be surprised if any and all of the RBs we cut this preseason end up on other teams, there's a lot of talent here right now. Here's my take...

Lacy and Rawls are the safest of the bunch. Lacy has proven he's a competent and reliable #1 in an offense that didn't really care for running the ball much, other than to try and keep defenses more honest for Rodgers. Now he's with the Hawks who, ideally, want to run the ball more than any other team in the league. From what I've seen over Lacy's career, is that his body can hold up to the duty of the bell cow and we'll have multiple backs to rotate and keep his carries in-check. I know he hasn't been all that impressive in preseason, but he's coming back from an ankle sprain and I don't think he's been overly-laborious (no need to) with his playing time so far.

I think Rawls is safe because of (and it sucks to say) his flashes of brilliance in late 2015 and the potential he's continued to show between early last season and training camps. I say it sucks to say because at this point he's being protected mainly based off of production that was multiple seasons ago. Dude's a gamer, but IMO it's getting close to the Kearse situation (some of the biggest plays of our history, but seemingly past that type of production now). I don't want this conversation to go into our WR situation, but I feel like Rawls is being rewarded for previous play and not his current/recent production. This season is going to be a make-or-break for Rawls. If he proves he can be the #1 or stay healthy splitting carries with Lacy, he's got a great shot at a second contract with us. We know what he can do, he's just gotta prove he can be reliable in this league. I love the kid, rarely do you see someone so jacked up and excited about being where he is and working with the opportunities that he gets. He loves the game.

From here, I think the RB gets pretty chaotic and kind of in a good way. Prosise has proven he can be a huge mismatch and tilt the field. He's an explosive player that can hybrid between RB/WR, but he's still proving to be unavailable and unreliable. I want to see him on the field really bad, and I believe he could have played the last couple weeks if they decided to push him or the situation was different (like playoffs), but the coaches aren't going to push him because of his injury history, potential and what he showed in limited time last year. In a lot of ways Prosise is similar to the Harvin situation, but he's actually level-headed and not a doucher with attitude problems according to all accounts. Personally, I think he's one of the highest-risk/reward personnel decisions on the roster. Mostly because of who's behind him (or started the preseason behind him) on the depth chart.

Carson has been an absolute pleasure to watch this season. I was pretty impressed with his film from OSU last year and loved the physicality that he finished runs with. So far all he's done is make Pete and the rest of Seattle rant and rave about him. He's quick, decisive, runs with authority and so far has taken care of the football. I honestly have no idea where they plan on sticking Carson on the depth chart right now. He could be at the top, he could be #3 or lower (as of right now he's not even listed on the official depth chart). Either way, I think he's going to end up making this team barring any meltdowns in the final two weeks of preseason.

As ACFan has pointed out, Collins has been really reliable as a third down and short yardage back so far this preseason. The way I see it, and I want to love AC, he's kind of the floor as far as our RB group goes. He's consistent, proven he can stay healthy and transform his body (though his time with #1s and regular season has been limited), but ultimately average. He's Mr. Reliable. The way I see it, he brings about the exact same skills/value to the team as Lacy and I think they're all-in on giving Lacy a spot as the #1 or #2 no matter what happens this year. I just think between Lacy's contract and seemingly having a slightly higher ceiling, AC is going to end up cut this preseason. It would be the Seahawk way to watch him go to another team with better run-blocking and watch him post 4+ YPC all season.

While Davis has had flashes in preseason, I think he's on the outside looking in. There's just too much talent ahead of him and we're going to end up keeping Marcel Reece so that's another roster spot that'll be eaten up by a back that's basically a lock to make the squad. Though, we've cut and resigned FBs seemingly depending on the flavor of the week in the past.

The hardest part about this situation, in my eyes, has to be the risk/reward of Collin's reliability vs. Rawls/Prosise's talent. There's points to be made for all three of these players to make the squad, but surely we aren't going to keep all of them -- and we certainly won't be able to stash any of them on our practice squad. Going to be some tough decisions for our coaching staff over the next couple weeks.

TLDR; I think Lacy and Rawls are locks. Carson and Prosise have one foot in the door, while Collins and Davis are unfortunately on the outside looking in.

 

[ACFan]

Really appreciate the conversation going on in here. The Seahawks have found themselves really deep at RB this year, and it's going to suck letting some of them go. Wouldn't be surprised if any and all of the RBs we cut this preseason end up on other teams, there's a lot of talent here right now. Here's my take...

Lacy and Rawls are the safest of the bunch. Lacy has proven he's a competent and reliable #1 in an offense that didn't really care for running the ball much, other than to try and keep defenses more honest for Rodgers. Now he's with the Hawks who, ideally, want to run the ball more than any other team in the league. From what I've seen over Lacy's career, is that his body can hold up to the duty of the bell cow and we'll have multiple backs to rotate and keep his carries in-check. I know he hasn't been all that impressive in preseason, but he's coming back from an ankle sprain and I don't think he's been overly-laborious (no need to) with his playing time so far.

I think Rawls is safe because of (and it sucks to say) his flashes of brilliance in late 2015 and the potential he's continued to show between early last season and training camps. I say it sucks to say because at this point he's being protected mainly based off of production that was multiple seasons ago. Dude's a gamer, but IMO it's getting close to the Kearse situation (some of the biggest plays of our history, but seemingly past that type of production now). I don't want this conversation to go into our WR situation, but I feel like Rawls is being rewarded for previous play and not his current/recent production. This season is going to be a make-or-break for Rawls. If he proves he can be the #1 or stay healthy splitting carries with Lacy, he's got a great shot at a second contract with us. We know what he can do, he's just gotta prove he can be reliable in this league. I love the kid, rarely do you see someone so jacked up and excited about being where he is and working with the opportunities that he gets. He loves the game.

From here, I think the RB gets pretty chaotic and kind of in a good way. Prosise has proven he can be a huge mismatch and tilt the field. He's an explosive player that can hybrid between RB/WR, but he's still proving to be unavailable and unreliable. I want to see him on the field really bad, and I believe he could have played the last couple weeks if they decided to push him or the situation was different (like playoffs), but the coaches aren't going to push him because of his injury history, potential and what he showed in limited time last year. In a lot of ways Prosise is similar to the Harvin situation, but he's actually level-headed and not a doucher with attitude problems according to all accounts. Personally, I think he's one of the highest-risk/reward personnel decisions on the roster. Mostly because of who's behind him (or started the preseason behind him) on the depth chart.

Carson has been an absolute pleasure to watch this season. I was pretty impressed with his film from OSU last year and loved the physicality that he finished runs with. So far all he's done is make Pete and the rest of Seattle rant and rave about him. He's quick, decisive, runs with authority and so far has taken care of the football. I honestly have no idea where they plan on sticking Carson on the depth chart right now. He could be at the top, he could be #3 or lower (as of right now he's not even listed on the official depth chart). Either way, I think he's going to end up making this team barring any meltdowns in the final two weeks of preseason.

As ACFan has pointed out, Collins has been really reliable as a third down and short yardage back so far this preseason. The way I see it, and I want to love AC, he's kind of the floor as far as our RB group goes. He's consistent, proven he can stay healthy and transform his body (though his time with #1s and regular season has been limited), but ultimately average. He's Mr. Reliable. The way I see it, he brings about the exact same skills/value to the team as Lacy and I think they're all-in on giving Lacy a spot as the #1 or #2 no matter what happens this year. I just think between Lacy's contract and seemingly having a slightly higher ceiling, AC is going to end up cut this preseason. It would be the Seahawk way to watch him go to another team with better run-blocking and watch him post 4+ YPC all season.

While Davis has had flashes in preseason, I think he's on the outside looking in. There's just too much talent ahead of him and we're going to end up keeping Marcel Reece so that's another roster spot that'll be eaten up by a back that's basically a lock to make the squad. Though, we've cut and resigned FBs seemingly depending on the flavor of the week in the past.

The hardest part about this situation, in my eyes, has to be the risk/reward of Collin's reliability vs. Rawls/Prosise's talent. There's points to be made for all three of these players to make the squad, but surely we aren't going to keep all of them -- and we certainly won't be able to stash any of them on our practice squad. Going to be some tough decisions for our coaching staff over the next couple weeks.

TLDR; I think Lacy and Rawls are locks. Carson and Prosise have one foot in the door, while Collins and Davis are unfortunately on the outside looking in.

well stated thoughts all around JG.

 

[JGfromtheNW]

well stated thoughts all around JG.

Thanks ACFan. Ended up being quite a bit longer than I originally thought :lol:

 

[hawkfan68]

If I were to take every rb on the roster and make a depth chart order, right now per this preseason productivity, it would look like this -

1) Carson
2) Collins
3) Davis
4) McKissic
5) Lacy
6) Rawls (minor injury)
7) Prosise (minor injury)

Lacy has been a huge disappointment, he's healthy and has no burst. He's running mediocre, definitely not like he was as a rookie or when he was at Alabama. The pro game seems to have caught up and overtaken him. He needs to lose about 15-20 pounds more and get a burst in the process. Rawls and Prosise can't stay healthy to show anything. Carson, Collins, and Davis have done well for the most part.