Pope cut

[Anonymous]

There might have been locker room or attendence/tardiness issues we're not privy to which factored into this cut. There may also be something on an x-ray we arent hearing about.

Tangibles aside, Intangibles like team chemistry, health, and peer interactions are valued very highly by the regime. I seriously doubt the team is going to make any of these issues public for a player that may have interest elsewhere; not Pete's style.

 

[Overseasfan]

He wasn't going to play Rawls out of a roster spot, he's a top 5 back when healthy. Even though Pope did well I can't really see him having such a high ceiling. C-Mike has been amazing ever since coming back to Seatlle and is among the absolute best RB2s in the league. Prosise has been injured for most of camp but when he played he's done well and Pete has only said positive things about the guy. More importantly though, Prosise isn't a traditional back, he's a satelite back. Pope was never in contention for Prosise' spot as they fill different roles.

The only real debate going on was for the 4th RB spot, otherwise known as injury insurance/gameday inactivity. If they get Pope on PS, let's be honest with ourselves here Collins has a much smaller chance to clear waivers after his huge college production, that means they get to keep both of them.

It's a gamble, if it works we keep them both and if it doesn't it's not like we've lost all that much. Pope is a good player but I don't really see him being a game changer.

 

[McGruff]

I am more concerned about the disregard for the defense until the last minute, but my frustration with the Pope decision is not the single player.

Yes he gives us a plan B if somehow Michael reverts back to old Michael and Tical has warned.

And he gives us another scoring option if something happens to either Rawls or Michael. But I think we would survive without him.

The issue is that in making the decision they are clearly deviating from their own blueprint. The very thing that made them good. And the reason is because they had more success so they feel more comfortable making the decision, they are the boss.

But deviating from the plan burns you pretty often, and the plan works.

So now the UDFA knows that we were blowing smoke up their *sses. It used to be a fair competition, that was the difference between us and almost every other team out there. No matter what, you beat the guy who has the draft slot, you still make the team. Most teams will put the UDFA at a disadvantage against draft picks competing for the same position.

This made the decision driver the performance, not extraneous factors that shouldn't impact the choice.

Now, we clearly rolled back to how the rest of the league does this. That means next time we want to compete for an UDFA and we try to use that line, it will get thrown back at us. We won't get first shot at the best players that did not get drafted anymore.

And we won't pick the best players from the pool anymore like we did, because we are clearly weighting factors that have nothing to do with the competition which skews the outcome.

It isn't Pope, it is also all the other guys we will lose later because of this decision - both in guys we will not get and the ones we will overlook.

6 UDFA'S made the team this year. I'd hazard to guess that is more than any other year. I don't see how the message of this offseason could possibly be that we are blowing smoke when it comes to UDFAS.

 

[dogorama]

Burley was waived as injured, not straight-out cut. Might be headed to IR?

He was cut. I don't like it but totally understand it. They are going with Lane inside and that is the correct choice. The man covered Edelman and Welker until his freak injury.

Healthy honey Burley isn't. Plus they aren't doing a billion safeties for nothing...... 4/2/5. Understand it, buy into it, accept it. Faster and quicker. It's just that simple. Screw putting a linebacker in the when a big safety does it better.

Safety's everywhere, I like it! A mongol swarm of Kenny Easley clones descending upon our helpless rivals!

 

[Grahamhawker]

Fans are fickle, Pope is just this week's "dumb" coaching decision. It seems like it was only a couple of weeks ago that your intelligence was seriously questioned if you had any doubts about Boykin. The group-think turns on a dime.

And IIRC there was never a huge consensus on Rawls after last preseason. He flashed some, sure- but a lot of posters liked the other guy...what was his name...?

Based on what we saw, I think few, if any could have predicted Rawls would lead the league in ypc and yac.

Perhaps limited info works both ways?

 

[Ozzy]

I think Collins has a high ceiling and I'm glad to see him make the team and have zero issues with keeping him over Pope. I loved what Pope did and his energy and it will be interesting to see what happens to him. I have a feeling he will be on our practice squad and if not good for him, he's earned it.

All this talk about keeping Pope over Prosise is absolutely insanse though lol.

 

[getnasty]

I have no doubt that Pope makes it on the PS. It sucks for him but just no need for him on the 53 with Rawls and Michael. No question he outplayed Collins, but Pope isnt excalty a short yardage back.
Pete and John are rolling the dice on this one.

 

[pmedic920]

There might have been locker room or attendence/tardiness issues we're not privy to which factored into this cut. There may also be something on an x-ray we arent hearing about.

Tangibles aside, Intangibles like team chemistry, health, and peer interactions are valued very highly by the regime. I seriously doubt the team is going to make any of these issues public for a player that may have interest elsewhere; not Pete's style.

This adds to my points.
My "ticker" can't handle the same amount of stress that it could a few years ago, these days, I've got to choose my battles wisely.

On this type of stuff, I have to "trust" and move on.

This group of decision makers have brought me more "football" joy than any that preceded them.

 

[FlyingGreg]

I have no doubt that Pope makes it on the PS. It sucks for him but just no need for him on the 53 with Rawls and Michael. No question he outplayed Collins, but Pope isnt excalty a short yardage back.
Pete and John are rolling the dice on this one.

He got signed to the Jets roster.

 

[Blitzer88]

Fans are fickle, Pope is just this week's "dumb" coaching decision. It seems like it was only a couple of weeks ago that your intelligence was seriously questioned if you had any doubts about Boykin. The group-think turns on a dime.

And IIRC there was never a huge consensus on Rawls after last preseason. He flashed some, sure- but a lot of posters liked the other guy...what was his name...?

Based on what we saw, I think few, if any could have predicted Rawls would lead the league in ypc and yac.

Perhaps limited info works both ways?

You are thinking of Rod Smith.

And yes, this situation seems a lot like Rod Smith's from last season.

Also, at the end of the day, Prosise was never gonna get cut even if he didn't play in preseason and I would have been happy to have Pope over Collins as he did outperform Collins in preseason, by a LARGE margin, but ultimately there were gonna be limited carries for them to see anyways so I believe it will be moot.

The one move I do have a large issue with is Simon being kept over Burley. Simon is all hype and no substance. Burley is a good nickle corner as well as provides good depth for us. Now our CB depth is very thin.

 

[hawknation2016]

[youtube]3181HLCwio[/youtube]

 

[sc85sis]

...remember the reason they drafted Lockett was to be a return guy hoping he could learn the WR spot.

OK, I'm sorry, but that statement is just flat out asinine.

Of course every player going from college to the NFL has a lot to learn, but Lockett was not just an excellent returner in college, he was also an exceptional WR. He had over 100 receptions for over 1500 yards and 11 TDs as a senior and his junior year was almost as good.

They did not expect him to be a guy that was going to contribute much as a WR with Kearse, Baldwin and Richardson as the first three, they stated he surprised them and pushed his way to playing time. He did the rest.

Uh huh. So you're telling me that they drafted an incredibly productive receiver from a power 5 conference in the 3rd round and didn't think he could or would contribute much as a WR? And that makes sense to you?

Sorry, not buying that. At all.

That actually is a pretty accurate statement of what occurred.

Yet as much as the Seahawks believed in Lockett, he has in some ways exceeded their expectations early in his rookie campaign. Back in May, the Seahawks saw Lockett as a player who could immediately upgrade their return game, and the plan was to wait and see what he could as a receiver. Fourth months later, Lockett has emerged as Seattle’s third receiver and he saw significant playing time in Seattle’ season opener, playing 70 percent of the offensive snaps.

“He’s a receiver that returns kicks, I don’t think it’s the other way around,” Carroll said. “… I would say, yeah I think I’m surprised at that much (playing time). The game called for a lot of three receivers and all that, probably didn’t come into the season thinking he would be that active, but he’s been fantastic and he’s so supremely conditioned and all. He’s just worked so hard, it’s not a big deal to him at all. So he’s kind of just a regular part of the offense now. I really think he’s a receiver that’s returning kicks. We thought of him probably, ‘we’ll figure that other part out, let’s get him to be the returner,’ and we went about it that way, and he took it over and showed us that we need to think the other way.”

Source: http://www.seahawks.com/news/2015/09/19 ... specialist

 

[Basis4day]

...remember the reason they drafted Lockett was to be a return guy hoping he could learn the WR spot.

OK, I'm sorry, but that statement is just flat out asinine.

Of course every player going from college to the NFL has a lot to learn, but Lockett was not just an excellent returner in college, he was also an exceptional WR. He had over 100 receptions for over 1500 yards and 11 TDs as a senior and his junior year was almost as good.

They did not expect him to be a guy that was going to contribute much as a WR with Kearse, Baldwin and Richardson as the first three, they stated he surprised them and pushed his way to playing time. He did the rest.

Uh huh. So you're telling me that they drafted an incredibly productive receiver from a power 5 conference in the 3rd round and didn't think he could or would contribute much as a WR? And that makes sense to you?

Sorry, not buying that. At all.

Thats not at all what is being said. The coaching staff is on record as primary taking him for his return abilities.

No one said they didn't think he had the talent to be a productive receiver. They just didn't think he would do it as quickly as he did.

 

[kearly]

This is an appeal to authority.

PCJS are smart, not all-knowing. They make mistakes, too.

Even the very best should be questioned and scrutinized when it is reasonable to do so. I'm sure PCJS wouldn't want it any other way. Pete is usually pretty good at listening to criticism and learning from mistakes.

 

[kearly]

Yes... but that's 2017. I am all for planning for the future but I don't see the value in projecting your roster for 2017 when you haven't started 2016.

Pope helps the team more in 2016 than Collins or Procise would. The latter two are IMO stash guys like Tharold Simon.

Some have argued that Pope doesn't have a ton of value right now and that is true, but as soon as next year his value will be obvious when the team is looking for a new RB2 to replace C-Mike. Hopefully we end up getting him back and this works out like the Justin Forsett cut of 2008.

I refuse to ignore 6+ years of roster building over a 4th-string RB and basically challenge the current FO and calling them idiots. Everyone else is free to do so, I'm just stating my opinions on the matter.

PCJS are the best. But they have made plenty of mistakes. Not only have they made mistakes, but their mistakes have tended to be of the obvious variety. Cary Williams, the slant to Lockette, cutting Jaye Howard after he had a great preseason, etc. Just because you are the best doesn't mean that you are immune to mistakes or reasonable critiques.

I don't know what we have in Collins because he's flashed so poorly, but I see a low-center of gravity style of running that reminds me of how Lynch ran (not beastmode, just a low-center of gravity).

Did you mean to say CJ Procise? Collins has the highest center of gravity of any RB I've seen in Seattle this era, he runs even higher with more top heavyness than Robert Turbin did. Procise on the other hand runs a bit upright but carries his center of gravity pretty low thanks to him having a heavy lower body weight distribution.

There might have been locker room or attendence/tardiness issues we're not privy to which factored into this cut. There may also be something on an x-ray we arent hearing about.

This is quality perspective, however Seattle didn't mention any of this when releasing Pope. It sounds like it genuinely came down to them wanting to keep everybody and they thought Pope had the best chance to clear waivers. It was a tactical decision, one that was influenced less by performance and eye-test than it should have been.

 

[kearly]

Regarding Lockett, I think their talk about him being a return guy primarily was mostly coach speak. Pete loves to play rookies, but he is scared to death of creating high expectations for them in the media. It was the same thing for Russell Wilson. He was clearly the best QB on the team the moment he was drafted, but he was a 3rd string guy who wasn't even competing for the starting job at first because Pete wanted his QBOTF to have a lower bar to clear and make it feel like his success was a "surprise", even though it never was a surprise at all to anyone who watches the game closely.

 

[chris98251]

Well the Jets claiming him and signing him to their 53 man roster validates everyone's argument about keeping him, sure he has to stick around, but those thinking we would just be able to stash him while others seen something at least have the ability to say we are not all idiots as some were making us out to be.

 

[TestMo1337]

Yes... but that's 2017. I am all for planning for the future but I don't see the value in projecting your roster for 2017 when you haven't started 2016.

Pope helps the team more in 2016 than Collins or Procise would. The latter two are IMO stash guys like Tharold Simon.

Some have argued that Pope doesn't have a ton of value right now and that is true, but as soon as next year his value will be obvious when the team is looking for a new RB2 to replace C-Mike. Hopefully we end up getting him back and this works out like the Justin Forsett cut of 2008.

I'm not worried about replacing the RB2 when I am comfortable with RB1. People want to use last year as some indicator but last year was completely different as we had multiple years of RB1-3 to know what we have. We all saw the issues with all three RBs in 2015 and it forced them to go deeper than they had. I don't think you can make a claim that Pope played better than Michaels or proved on tape and through practice that he was more deserving than Procise. I predicted that neither Collins nor Pope would make the roster after 2 preseason games.

I refuse to ignore 6+ years of roster building over a 4th-string RB and basically challenge the current FO and calling them idiots. Everyone else is free to do so, I'm just stating my opinions on the matter.

PCJS are the best. But they have made plenty of mistakes. Not only have they made mistakes, but their mistakes have tended to be of the obvious variety. Cary Williams, the slant to Lockette, cutting Jaye Howard after he had a great preseason, etc. Just because you are the best doesn't mean that you are immune to mistakes or reasonable critiques.

The slant is not an FO call; him being on the roster and therefore the only player they choose to use in that play... sure blame the FO. I agree that fans are going to call out the FO legitimately and unreasonably throughout their tenure, our happiness is defined by grown men placing a ball across a field with white markers so we can yell at random people we are better than them. In regard to the people you've selected, who was the better choice after Williams; as terrible as he ended up being we didn't have enough depth behind him. I can't recall some stud CB that we let walk. I remember they made multiple moves to improve their depth.

I don't know what we have in Collins because he's flashed so poorly, but I see a low-center of gravity style of running that reminds me of how Lynch ran (not beastmode, just a low-center of gravity).

Did you mean to say CJ Procise? Collins has the highest center of gravity of any RB I've seen in Seattle this era, he runs even higher with more top heavyness than Robert Turbin did. Procise on the other hand runs a bit upright but carries his center of gravity pretty low thanks to him having a heavy lower body weight distribution.

[youtube]https://youtu.be/ZQYGCnLJuC0?t=1m34s[/youtube]

I just recall that's what I noticed in training camp. I am not willing to bet my life on who is or is not a "low-center of gravity" back compared to another one. Every time I looked at him in TC, he looked like he'd get low so many not LCOG.

 

[bmorepunk]

TwistedHusy feels more strongly about Pope getting cut than I do pretty much anything, real life included.

And Burley can't help the Browns. No one can.

 

[ACFan]

What will be interesting to see if Collins is even active on game day. I suspect he will be.

He absolutely should be active, up on the game plan and ready to get in the game and work if need be.

This is the NFL, anything can happen. It is factual to say Rawls averages an injury every 13 games in a Seahawk uniform, the next one might be 40 games away, or 2 quarters away, he had 2 carries in preseason. All 4 RBs kept bring something different and can produce, and honestly I'm least impressed with the guy currently listed as #2, if he were to be needed for any extended work.

I expect Collins will be ready to go, absolutely. Probably not needed, but ready and capable of helping.

What will be interesting to see if Collins is even active on game day. I suspect he will be.

By the sound of it, Collins was kept for roster protection purposes, not because he had earned anything.

The last part of that statement is an opinion, which I doubt you would keep if you were privy to everything the coaches have seen.

I'm curious as to what exactly it would have taken for Pope to make this team.

Well here's my theory, maybe he would have needed to look as good or better than Collins did, once the heavy hitting started back in camp. Now please hear me out.

That 4-5 day period before the first preseason game, when they really started playing in practice and hitting at 100%, going against as good or better defense than they would see the entire preseason.

That time when Collins was the about the only healthy back, C-mike was sick, Pope should have been available then? right? Farmer?

So we got Collins for sure and probably Pope , working with the 1st team O, going against the 1st team defense, beginning to really simulate a game, that first week.

We got quotes from Russell Wilson saying Collins made a cut "so sharp and exquisite", it was the best he's ever seen, now does RW not know what he's talking about? he's played with Rawls and Lynch as well, saw a lot of their moves.

We got writers witnessing it, listing Collins at #20 of players to look out for this preseason. So there seemed to be a buzz about Collins, not Pope.



Lastly, I'll paraphrase a quote from CPC, with the backdrop being concerns about AC's ball security,"we've pounded and pounded on him, he's taken it and dished it back out"

Then I heard several posters mention that he may have tweaked an ankle, right at the end of camp, also recall a CPC quote about "having to start taking it easy on guys" when asked about AC.

So I've had this theory for a while now, and it's remained plausible though the events of the last 3 weeks and explained a lot of things including why AC got minimal looks in preseason.

And that's simply he wowed them in camp, they worked him and worked him, and by the time preseason game 1 came, he was too beat up, or they were already convinced he was a keeper, enough so not to keep pushing him when he may not be 100% and others are starting to get healthy.

And do think it was AC, Pope and Farmer as the only available backs that first week of full contact scrimmages.

I'm suggesting the coaches got a real good comparison then, things we didn't see. And it convinced them enough that things played out like they did.

that's my theory.