Are the Patriots Still Cheaters?

[NWPatsFan]

What about driving out a roller to remove the snow for a FG. If I remember correctly, that was NE. Some of the things your team does might not be an outright violation of a rule, but since the road team doesn't have access to snow removing equipment, common sense says that doing something like that isn't right. Belicheat tries to take advantage of anything that isn't documented as a rule. Your statement in an email above asked someone that "even if the league comes out and says they found nothing" regarding deflategate, would I believe it, the answer is an emphatic no. Every team HAD (won't any more after this fiasco)the opportunity to rough up the balls to their satisfaction. Brady even said they use the balls in practice, etc. Per Belicheat's news conference, NE was "prepping the balls and that caused the temperature to go up". Why are they doing all of this prep before the inspection and not earlier? Amazing that they are generating enough friction in their prepping to raise the temperature of the balls right before they were going to be inspected and then throw in Brady's comment that he "doesn't want anyone touching the balls after he's selected them because they are perfect". See some inconsistencies there? You said earlier that everyone knows cold temperatures will deflate a ball. The factual statement is change in temperature is what caused the pressure drop. I believe they were raising the temperature of the balls before they were inspected to create a larger delta T. That would explain why only their balls were low and not Indy's. You also stated that you read something about the change in turnovers that "explained it". Look at the numbers before and after 2007. Do you think Belicheat started to think TO's were bad in 2007 and changed his coaching drills? You never answered the fact that players like BJGE had zero fumbles in 4 years and then had 5 in two years with Cincy. Did he forget everything he learned in NE? Why did Brady's TO's drop off so much after 2007? If you want a real discussion, answer all of the questions in this response.

Snow removal was back in 1976 or so. I remember that game and it was a spur of the moment decision by a work release convict from the local prison Mark Henderson. They snow plow was on the field cleaning off the lines so the ref could see the the boundaries, etc. and the snow plow operator weaved off the path he was on to clear a spot for the kicker. It turned out to be a shady move, but Mark Hendedson was a folk hero for awhile in NE. Ancient history, Belichick had no part in that and at the time the Pats were barely on anyone's radar.

Belichick as all coaches should find any legal advantage in the rules, that is one of the coaches jobs. If it is legal what is the problem? Do you accuse teams that started the no-huddle offense as "cheating", how about the hurry up offense, what about teams that first started the on-side kick, what about a fake FG??? I could go on, but my point is that coaches have always found ways to gain an advantage for their team.

Deflategate- You have obviously already made up your mind (as stated above), however because I feel like you have asked some great questions that I have also asked myself, I will spend a bit of my evening answering your very good questions. You asked, "Why are they doing all this prep before they were to be inspected and not earlier?" Probably because they have never been told it was illegal to do so. So I am not sure what the problem is with this process until the league makes a ruling. The sole responsibility for the inspection of the footballs pregame and during the game is to be carried out by the referee (no exceptions), once a ball has been approved for play it is up to the refs (no one else) to decide if a ball is still adequate.
You also state that Indy's balls did not change psi, how do you know this? I have heard that they have no recorded psi's for any of the balls approved for play. How do we know that the Colts balls were not overinflated to begin with? Tell me if this scenario makes sense. Not asking if you believe it, but is it feasible. The GM of the Colts is on record of saying that he informed someone in the league office early in the week that they were concerned about low PSI in Pats balls. That being the case, the Colts knowing there may be an inspection at some point during the game, may have taken steps to insure that their balls would not lose pressure due to temperature change. The easiest way to do this would be to have your 12 balls remain outside in the baggage compartment of the bus possibly until they were at the appropriate outside temperature (50 degrees) fill them if needed to the correct psi and then bring them in for inspection when the refs were ready for them. Feasible?

Re Turnovers- I can honestly say that I think that BJGE had better coaching in NE than he did in CIN. So it does not surprise me that he would be better at a lot of things in NE than most places. However, a different trend exists too, his usage went way up. In 4 years in NE he had approx. 500 caries, in his two years in CIN he had almost exactly 500 carries. Not only was he carrying the ball more frequently (i.e. getting tired) in Cincy he was also not benefiting from playing with a Brady who has always played better than Dalton (i.e. teams were not worried so much about BJGE beating them...more db's in the game and less DL and LB in the game). Also, I read some info on BJGE a while ago and I think I remember reading that he had never fumbled in college either (could be remembering that wrong...I tried googling it and had no luck).

I did answer about Brady, 2007 was the year the Pats got Randy Moss (one of the greatest receivers to ever play the game) and Wes Welker (arguably one of the best slot receivers to ever play the game)....I have no doubt that this factor contributed to low interception rates more than any amount of PSI could ever account for. Welker and now Edleman was/is the perfect receiver for Brady's ball control offense. Shorter passes usually (not always) are safer passes then longer ones.

So, there are my answers, I am not a blind homer, I just feel that folks of other teams have not been hearing the complete story in the media and I hope I am offering some different viewpoints for folks to consider. The media is terrible these days and I much prefer to hear about other teams' fans perspective than some nitwit reporters.

 

[50yrpatsfan]

Yup always have been always will. Cheaters do prosper.

So, even if the NFL releases a thorough report that exonerates the Pats, you are saying you won't believe the report. Instead you will believe unconfirmed "leaks" most likely from the Colts GM/owner and possibly Mike Kensil (league office) a known Pats hater from his days with the Jets. Do I have that right?

Would that be the same NFL League office that destroyed all the evidence after spygate without letting anybody see it? Look, I don't know if the Patriots are cheaters and you certainly don't "know" they are clean. Only the people directly involved have those answers and if the truth is anywhere close to what I believe, they are not likely to be forthcoming. What we do know is that the Patriot organization will try to get any advantage they can on Sunday, to the point where their activities blur the lines enough to have OTHER ORGANIZATIONS, not just fans question their motives. I appreciate that you are a fan of the team and you feel compelled to stick up for them. I also have a certain amount of sympathy for you as this is an argument you will never win. Your team shows a pattern of behaviour that is always going to lead to people questioning their success. I hear there is a similar site to Seahawks.net that is run by people who believe Bellichik is the epitome of ethics and professionalism. You will find many like minded souls over there. I suggest you check it out. You will likely be much happier frequenting their site.

There are 2 tales with Belichick:

- pre-Spygate, where he pushed the envelope regarding rules, because he was old school and that's the way things were done in his experience going back to 1970. Take whatever advantage you can, never accept losing, be a sore-sport, be a pr*ck, the league office is your enemy, the other teams are your enemy, etc.

- post-Spygate. Kraft pummeled him for taking the risks he took with the camera placement crap, the price everyone paid for that, including almost costing BB his career which he loves more than air. Since then he's been a very different person and runs things very differently, he's a walking rulebook and always stays on the right side of the rules. He's much more sportsmanlike after a loss and overall much classier. This recent deflate-gate thing is a total joke, the Pats did nothing. The ineligible-receiver stuff they played on the Ravens was hysterical but well within the rules.

He's the greatest coach of all time, the most successful, the best tactician, the best team-builder in the cap era, the greatest authority on film study (of game action I mean). Also a hell of a guy with wide ranging interests, a Phillips Andover & Wesleyan grad, runs a charitable foundation, is the pre-eminent NFL historian in the world, etc.

 

[WmHBonney]

To answer the original question: Yes

 

[NWPatsFan]

To answer the original question: Yes

What are you basing this answer on? The media? Inside info that you have? Intuition?

 

[vonstout]

What about driving out a roller to remove the snow for a FG. If I remember correctly, that was NE. Some of the things your team does might not be an outright violation of a rule, but since the road team doesn't have access to snow removing equipment, common sense says that doing something like that isn't right. Belicheat tries to take advantage of anything that isn't documented as a rule. Your statement in an email above asked someone that "even if the league comes out and says they found nothing" regarding deflategate, would I believe it, the answer is an emphatic no. Every team HAD (won't any more after this fiasco)the opportunity to rough up the balls to their satisfaction. Brady even said they use the balls in practice, etc. Per Belicheat's news conference, NE was "prepping the balls and that caused the temperature to go up". Why are they doing all of this prep before the inspection and not earlier? Amazing that they are generating enough friction in their prepping to raise the temperature of the balls right before they were going to be inspected and then throw in Brady's comment that he "doesn't want anyone touching the balls after he's selected them because they are perfect". See some inconsistencies there? You said earlier that everyone knows cold temperatures will deflate a ball. The factual statement is change in temperature is what caused the pressure drop. I believe they were raising the temperature of the balls before they were inspected to create a larger delta T. That would explain why only their balls were low and not Indy's. You also stated that you read something about the change in turnovers that "explained it". Look at the numbers before and after 2007. Do you think Belicheat started to think TO's were bad in 2007 and changed his coaching drills? You never answered the fact that players like BJGE had zero fumbles in 4 years and then had 5 in two years with Cincy. Did he forget everything he learned in NE? Why did Brady's TO's drop off so much after 2007? If you want a real discussion, answer all of the questions in this response.

Snow removal was back in 1976 or so. I remember that game and it was a spur of the moment decision by a work release convict from the local prison Mark Henderson. They snow plow was on the field cleaning off the lines so the ref could see the the boundaries, etc. and the snow plow operator weaved off the path he was on to clear a spot for the kicker. It turned out to be a shady move, but Mark Hendedson was a folk hero for awhile in NE. Ancient history, Belichick had no part in that and at the time the Pats were barely on anyone's radar.

Belichick as all coaches should find any legal advantage in the rules, that is one of the coaches jobs. If it is legal what is the problem? Do you accuse teams that started the no-huddle offense as "cheating", how about the hurry up offense, what about teams that first started the on-side kick, what about a fake FG??? I could go on, but my point is that coaches have always found ways to gain an advantage for their team.

Deflategate- You have obviously already made up your mind (as stated above), however because I feel like you have asked some great questions that I have also asked myself, I will spend a bit of my evening answering your very good questions. You asked, "Why are they doing all this prep before they were to be inspected and not earlier?" Probably because they have never been told it was illegal to do so. So I am not sure what the problem is with this process until the league makes a ruling. The sole responsibility for the inspection of the footballs pregame and during the game is to be carried out by the referee (no exceptions), once a ball has been approved for play it is up to the refs (no one else) to decide if a ball is still adequate.
You also state that Indy's balls did not change psi, how do you know this? I have heard that they have no recorded psi's for any of the balls approved for play. How do we know that the Colts balls were not overinflated to begin with? Tell me if this scenario makes sense. Not asking if you believe it, but is it feasible. The GM of the Colts is on record of saying that he informed someone in the league office early in the week that they were concerned about low PSI in Pats balls. That being the case, the Colts knowing there may be an inspection at some point during the game, may have taken steps to insure that their balls would not lose pressure due to temperature change. The easiest way to do this would be to have your 12 balls remain outside in the baggage compartment of the bus possibly until they were at the appropriate outside temperature (50 degrees) fill them if needed to the correct psi and then bring them in for inspection when the refs were ready for them. Feasible?

Re Turnovers- I can honestly say that I think that BJGE had better coaching in NE than he did in CIN. So it does not surprise me that he would be better at a lot of things in NE than most places. However, a different trend exists too, his usage went way up. In 4 years in NE he had approx. 500 caries, in his two years in CIN he had almost exactly 500 carries. Not only was he carrying the ball more frequently (i.e. getting tired) in Cincy he was also not benefiting from playing with a Brady who has always played better than Dalton (i.e. teams were not worried so much about BJGE beating them...more db's i :roll: n the game and less DL and LB in the game). Also, I read some info on BJGE a while ago and I think I remember reading that he had never fumbled in college either (could be remembering that wrong...I tried googling it and had no luck).

I did answer about Brady, 2007 was the year the Pats got Randy Moss (one of the greatest receivers to ever play the game) and Wes Welker (arguably one of the best slot receivers to ever play the game)....I have no doubt that this factor contributed to low interception rates more than any amount of PSI could ever account for. Welker and now Edleman was/is the perfect receiver for Brady's ball control offense. Shorter passes usually (not always) are safer passes then longer ones.

So, there are my answers, I am not a blind homer, I just feel that folks of other teams have not been hearing the complete story in the media and I hope I am offering some different viewpoints for folks to consider. The media is terrible these days and I much prefer to hear about other teams' fans perspective than some nitwit reporters.

Brady getting Moss/Welker could help his INTs some, but it can be argued that it could also mean more fumbles if he's taking more time to throw the ball (to Moss). He hasn't had great WRs the last few years and Gronk has been hurt until this year and Brady's INTs and fumbles are still way below his pre 2007 numbers.

BJGE : So he had about the same number of carries for both NE and Cincy and had zero fumbles in NE and 5 in Cincy. Do you think the"coaching" is weekly thing that is different week to week? Did he forget everything he learned in NE when he left or does NE wipe their brain like a hard drive when they leave?

From what I've read, they didn't record the pressure on any of the balls. It's just a pass/fail check. Is it possible that Indy had their balls outside to reduce the temp effect? I seriously doubt it, but I can't say it's impossible. That's something your coach might dream up . The reason I think NE intentionally raised the temp of the balls to get a larger delta T is the way Belicheat reacted in his press conf when he was asked if they heated up the balls before inspection. He got irritated and said the wear in process raised the temp. Can you think of any reason that they are prepping the balls before they are being checked other than to raise the temp? Brady said he doesn't want anyone to touch the balls after he has picked them. Does that mean he is prepping them himself right before they are checked? There are just too many discrepancies between Brady and Belichik's statements. I think the odds are higher that the league would cover it up than the odds that NE didn't do anything.

We can agree to disagree. You won't be convinced even if the league finds them guilty. I certainly won't be convinced if they find them innocent.

 

[NWPatsFan]

What about driving out a roller to remove the snow for a FG. If I remember correctly, that was NE. Some of the things your team does might not be an outright violation of a rule, but since the road team doesn't have access to snow removing equipment, common sense says that doing something like that isn't right. Belicheat tries to take advantage of anything that isn't documented as a rule. Your statement in an email above asked someone that "even if the league comes out and says they found nothing" regarding deflategate, would I believe it, the answer is an emphatic no. Every team HAD (won't any more after this fiasco)the opportunity to rough up the balls to their satisfaction. Brady even said they use the balls in practice, etc. Per Belicheat's news conference, NE was "prepping the balls and that caused the temperature to go up". Why are they doing all of this prep before the inspection and not earlier? Amazing that they are generating enough friction in their prepping to raise the temperature of the balls right before they were going to be inspected and then throw in Brady's comment that he "doesn't want anyone touching the balls after he's selected them because they are perfect". See some inconsistencies there? You said earlier that everyone knows cold temperatures will deflate a ball. The factual statement is change in temperature is what caused the pressure drop. I believe they were raising the temperature of the balls before they were inspected to create a larger delta T. That would explain why only their balls were low and not Indy's. You also stated that you read something about the change in turnovers that "explained it". Look at the numbers before and after 2007. Do you think Belicheat started to think TO's were bad in 2007 and changed his coaching drills? You never answered the fact that players like BJGE had zero fumbles in 4 years and then had 5 in two years with Cincy. Did he forget everything he learned in NE? Why did Brady's TO's drop off so much after 2007? If you want a real discussion, answer all of the questions in this response.

Snow removal was back in 1976 or so. I remember that game and it was a spur of the moment decision by a work release convict from the local prison Mark Henderson. They snow plow was on the field cleaning off the lines so the ref could see the the boundaries, etc. and the snow plow operator weaved off the path he was on to clear a spot for the kicker. It turned out to be a shady move, but Mark Hendedson was a folk hero for awhile in NE. Ancient history, Belichick had no part in that and at the time the Pats were barely on anyone's radar.

Belichick as all coaches should find any legal advantage in the rules, that is one of the coaches jobs. If it is legal what is the problem? Do you accuse teams that started the no-huddle offense as "cheating", how about the hurry up offense, what about teams that first started the on-side kick, what about a fake FG??? I could go on, but my point is that coaches have always found ways to gain an advantage for their team.

Deflategate- You have obviously already made up your mind (as stated above), however because I feel like you have asked some great questions that I have also asked myself, I will spend a bit of my evening answering your very good questions. You asked, "Why are they doing all this prep before they were to be inspected and not earlier?" Probably because they have never been told it was illegal to do so. So I am not sure what the problem is with this process until the league makes a ruling. The sole responsibility for the inspection of the footballs pregame and during the game is to be carried out by the referee (no exceptions), once a ball has been approved for play it is up to the refs (no one else) to decide if a ball is still adequate.
You also state that Indy's balls did not change psi, how do you know this? I have heard that they have no recorded psi's for any of the balls approved for play. How do we know that the Colts balls were not overinflated to begin with? Tell me if this scenario makes sense. Not asking if you believe it, but is it feasible. The GM of the Colts is on record of saying that he informed someone in the league office early in the week that they were concerned about low PSI in Pats balls. That being the case, the Colts knowing there may be an inspection at some point during the game, may have taken steps to insure that their balls would not lose pressure due to temperature change. The easiest way to do this would be to have your 12 balls remain outside in the baggage compartment of the bus possibly until they were at the appropriate outside temperature (50 degrees) fill them if needed to the correct psi and then bring them in for inspection when the refs were ready for them. Feasible?

Re Turnovers- I can honestly say that I think that BJGE had better coaching in NE than he did in CIN. So it does not surprise me that he would be better at a lot of things in NE than most places. However, a different trend exists too, his usage went way up. In 4 years in NE he had approx. 500 caries, in his two years in CIN he had almost exactly 500 carries. Not only was he carrying the ball more frequently (i.e. getting tired) in Cincy he was also not benefiting from playing with a Brady who has always played better than Dalton (i.e. teams were not worried so much about BJGE beating them...more db's i :roll: n the game and less DL and LB in the game). Also, I read some info on BJGE a while ago and I think I remember reading that he had never fumbled in college either (could be remembering that wrong...I tried googling it and had no luck).

I did answer about Brady, 2007 was the year the Pats got Randy Moss (one of the greatest receivers to ever play the game) and Wes Welker (arguably one of the best slot receivers to ever play the game)....I have no doubt that this factor contributed to low interception rates more than any amount of PSI could ever account for. Welker and now Edleman was/is the perfect receiver for Brady's ball control offense. Shorter passes usually (not always) are safer passes then longer ones.

So, there are my answers, I am not a blind homer, I just feel that folks of other teams have not been hearing the complete story in the media and I hope I am offering some different viewpoints for folks to consider. The media is terrible these days and I much prefer to hear about other teams' fans perspective than some nitwit reporters.

Brady getting Moss/Welker could help his INTs some, but it can be argued that it could also mean more fumbles if he's taking more time to throw the ball (to Moss). He hasn't had great WRs the last few years and Gronk has been hurt until this year and Brady's INTs and fumbles are still way below his pre 2007 numbers.

BJGE : So he had about the same number of carries for both NE and Cincy and had zero fumbles in NE and 5 in Cincy. Do you think the"coaching" is weekly thing that is different week to week? Did he forget everything he learned in NE when he left or does NE wipe their brain like a hard drive when they leave?

From what I've read, they didn't record the pressure on any of the balls. It's just a pass/fail check. Is it possible that Indy had their balls outside to reduce the temp effect? I seriously doubt it, but I can't say it's impossible. That's something your coach might dream up . The reason I think NE intentionally raised the temp of the balls to get a larger delta T is the way Belicheat reacted in his press conf when he was asked if they heated up the balls before inspection. He got irritated and said the wear in process raised the temp. Can you think of any reason that they are prepping the balls before they are being checked other than to raise the temp? Brady said he doesn't want anyone to touch the balls after he has picked them. Does that mean he is prepping them himself right before they are checked? There are just too many discrepancies between Brady and Belichik's statements. I think the odds are higher that the league would cover it up than the odds that NE didn't do anything.

We can agree to disagree. You won't be convinced even if the league finds them guilty. I certainly won't be convinced if they find them innocent.

I appreciate your thoughtful responses. I would be open to hearing a factual based report from the league. After the fiasco of "MisplacedCameraGate" I have little confidence in the NFL and their investigations. I think that is the biggest problem, nobody's fans have confidence in the league office. You probably think the Patriots got off easy for Misplacing a camera and I feel they were made an example of and the commish over reacted. Also, all the media driven nonsense doesn't help. Let's hope the report comes out sometime before the draft.

 

[vonstout]

My biggest problem is they always pull this crap during the playoffs. Every Super Bowl they have been in was decided by less than a TD and most by less than 3 points. Belicheat is always looking at rules like ball pressure and thinking, gee, if we have the ball warmer when they measure it, it will lose pressure when it cools off. The rules don't say you can't do it so it's OK. That is pathetic to me and I'd say the exact same thing if Seattle did it. You say the Pats are the best team in the salary cap era. I ask myself, Spygate happened before one of their SB wins; what other things have they done that never were discovered? When boxing started using gloves instead of bare fists, I doubt that the rules said you couldn't put a roll of coins in your hand before you put the gloves on. Do you think that means it would be OK to do it? I hate when soccer players dive or basketball players flop to get a call. I'd rather have my team line up and win the game straight up on the field without trying to bend the rules or con the refs.

 

[SnoCoHawk]

If the report comes out and absolutely exonerates the Patriots of any intentional deflation of the footballs, then I won't consider them to be cheaters in this case. However, if the report comes out and is just plain "We don't know (or can't prove) what happened" or finds that the Patriots exploited some tiny gap in the rules, they're cheaters.

It's annoying when anyone, anywhere (not just football) finds a way to weasel around the spirit of a law or rule just because it's not specific enough or not well-enforced enough. Clearly this rule is in place so that every ball in play has a certain PSI range. Plain as that. Intentionally manipulating the ball resulting in it not being in that PSI range during the game is cheating, whether they literally stuck a needle in it or not.

 

[NWPatsFan]

My biggest problem is they always pull this crap during the playoffs. Every Super Bowl they have been in was decided by less than a TD and most by less than 3 points. Belicheat is always looking at rules like ball pressure and thinking, gee, if we have the ball warmer when they measure it, it will lose pressure when it cools off. The rules don't say you can't do it so it's OK. That is pathetic to me and I'd say the exact same thing if Seattle did it. You say the Pats are the best team in the salary cap era. I ask myself, Spygate happened before one of their SB wins; what other things have they done that never were discovered? When boxing started using gloves instead of bare fists, I doubt that the rules said you couldn't put a roll of coins in your hand before you put the gloves on. Do you think that means it would be OK to do it? I hate when soccer players dive or basketball players flop to get a call. I'd rather have my team line up and win the game straight up on the field without trying to bend the rules or con the refs.

This Deflategate b.s. is the only playoff "crap" that they have been accused of that I remember. What am I forgetting?

None of their SB were decided by less than 3 points.

Spygate (dumb name for a controversy about a camera in the wrong location) was in 2007 (Well after 2004, which was their third SB victory in 4 years). The memo went out in 2006. The Jets were asked to remove a cameraperson from the field in Foxboro and the league did nothing to enforce the new memo. Belichick (wrongly) assumed that the memo was not being enforced, they were punished for being arrogant and ignoring a memo that the league had at least once not enforced.

How do you know what Belichick is thinking about ball pressure? I don't think he has stated anything that fits what you are implying. You seem to be jumping to conclusions based on media bias and speculation that promotes the anti-Belichick bias. I don't know if you have noticed or not, but the media HATES Belichick and I believe the feeling is mutual.

You say "what other things have they done that never were discovered?", do you extend that same thought to all the teams throughout history (even recent history) or just the one that is on top right now. For instance, Jets with Tripgate, Colts were accused of pumping in crowd noise in AFCCG against NE back a few years ago, Falcons more recently, Seahawks have had quite a few Adderall accusations, Browns were accused of texting down to the sidelines, Jets tampering with Revis, Broncos salary cap violations in late 90's, SF same as broncos, Steelers used steroids before they were banned (not illegal but fits with your above description of skating around the rules), Dolphins stole Shula from Baltimore in the late 60's or early 70's, Jerry Rice during SB years in SF used stickum while banned, etc... Are all those teams cheaters? That is just off the top of my head that list could go for a long time if I dug deeper into it. Are you really looking at this in the same light you do when other teams get accused? Doesn't sound like it.

Like I said before, It makes sense that fans of other teams hate the Patriots, I get it. I am a huge Red Sox fan and for years the Yankees were the team to hate. They were too good, it just didn't seem fair and their owner was arrogant and would spend more than anyone. Now I laugh at them, the Red Sox have won 3 WS since the Yankees have last won even one. Soon enough Brady and BB will retire and the Pats will fall back to being a regular team that once in a while might make the playoffs and everyone can once again laugh at the franchise that will have put together the greatest run of continued success in NFL history.

 

[NWPatsFan]

If the report comes out and absolutely exonerates the Patriots of any intentional deflation of the footballs, then I won't consider them to be cheaters in this case. However, if the report comes out and is just plain "We don't know (or can't prove) what happened" or finds that the Patriots exploited some tiny gap in the rules, they're cheaters.

It's annoying when anyone, anywhere (not just football) finds a way to weasel around the spirit of a law or rule just because it's not specific enough or not well-enforced enough. Clearly this rule is in place so that every ball in play has a certain PSI range. Plain as that. Intentionally manipulating the ball resulting in it not being in that PSI range during the game is cheating, whether they literally stuck a needle in it or not.

What about cracked plastic cups? Is that getting around the rules? Am I remembering that correctly? Didn't Sherman get off of his suspension due to a technicality? I remember hearing something about that. Does that fall into the same category?

 

[NWPatsFan]

If the report comes out and absolutely exonerates the Patriots of any intentional deflation of the footballs, then I won't consider them to be cheaters in this case. However, if the report comes out and is just plain "We don't know (or can't prove) what happened" or finds that the Patriots exploited some tiny gap in the rules, they're cheaters.

It's annoying when anyone, anywhere (not just football) finds a way to weasel around the spirit of a law or rule just because it's not specific enough or not well-enforced enough. Clearly this rule is in place so that every ball in play has a certain PSI range. Plain as that. Intentionally manipulating the ball resulting in it not being in that PSI range during the game is cheating, whether they literally stuck a needle in it or not.

Here is the problem, in a nutshell.
1) The media has already convicted the Patriots without any clear facts that prove any wrong-doing by any team.
2) The balls were not measured and/or recorded for PSI levels, before the game or at halftime. How can they ever know for sure how much pressure was lost compared to what should have been lost due to temperature difference.
3) It seems impossible with the above information for the league to ever know how much pressure was lost and how it happened.
Therefore, some people will always see the Patriots as cheaters because of the incompetence of the league. The close minded-ness of opposing fans, as they have allowed themselves to be tricked by the media with their bias against Belichick and the Patriots, is the biggest thing limiting what people are willing to see as legitimate reasons why the PSI may have been lower than 12.5.

 

[chris98251]

If the report comes out and absolutely exonerates the Patriots of any intentional deflation of the footballs, then I won't consider them to be cheaters in this case. However, if the report comes out and is just plain "We don't know (or can't prove) what happened" or finds that the Patriots exploited some tiny gap in the rules, they're cheaters.

It's annoying when anyone, anywhere (not just football) finds a way to weasel around the spirit of a law or rule just because it's not specific enough or not well-enforced enough. Clearly this rule is in place so that every ball in play has a certain PSI range. Plain as that. Intentionally manipulating the ball resulting in it not being in that PSI range during the game is cheating, whether they literally stuck a needle in it or not.

Here is the problem, in a nutshell.
1) The media has already convicted the Patriots without any clear facts that prove any wrong-doing by any team.
2) The balls were not measured and/or recorded for PSI levels, before the game or at halftime. How can they ever know for sure how much pressure was lost compared to what should have been lost due to temperature difference.
3) It seems impossible with the above information for the league to ever know how much pressure was lost and how it happened.
Therefore, some people will always see the Patriots as cheaters because of the incompetence of the league. The close minded-ness of opposing fans, as they have allowed themselves to be tricked by the media with their bias against Belichick and the Patriots, is the biggest thing limiting what people are willing to see as legitimate reasons why the PSI may have been lower than 12.5.

So everyone else is wrong and the Patriots are right, even though they have a history under Belichick for accidently putting cameras in the wrong place, purposely trying to confuse the officials, and other pushing of the rules and good sportsmanship.

They cheat, they push the rules hoping to not get caught, they try to gain an edge when they have less talent by using deceptive methods or breaking rules. If your a habitual criminal you think the judge is going to give you the benefit of the doubt when you say that the ball boy did it. In this case you are blaming the league, all the other fans, the officials and the media. Also the pressure in the balls are checked pre game at some point, loss of pressure just in a Patriots game seems a bit coincidental, you would think that every team that plays in a cold climate would have these same issues, and that both teams would have them routinely.

Also those teams that play in warm weather areas should be having over inflated balls based on your arguments as well.

 

[Laloosh]

If the report comes out and absolutely exonerates the Patriots of any intentional deflation of the footballs, then I won't consider them to be cheaters in this case. However, if the report comes out and is just plain "We don't know (or can't prove) what happened" or finds that the Patriots exploited some tiny gap in the rules, they're cheaters.

It's annoying when anyone, anywhere (not just football) finds a way to weasel around the spirit of a law or rule just because it's not specific enough or not well-enforced enough. Clearly this rule is in place so that every ball in play has a certain PSI range. Plain as that. Intentionally manipulating the ball resulting in it not being in that PSI range during the game is cheating, whether they literally stuck a needle in it or not.

Here is the problem, in a nutshell.
1) The media has already convicted the Patriots without any clear facts that prove any wrong-doing by any team.
2) The balls were not measured and/or recorded for PSI levels, before the game or at halftime. How can they ever know for sure how much pressure was lost compared to what should have been lost due to temperature difference.
3) It seems impossible with the above information for the league to ever know how much pressure was lost and how it happened.
Therefore, some people will always see the Patriots as cheaters because of the incompetence of the league. The close minded-ness of opposing fans, as they have allowed themselves to be tricked by the media with their bias against Belichick and the Patriots, is the biggest thing limiting what people are willing to see as legitimate reasons why the PSI may have been lower than 12.5.

I think you put too much stock in how much people care about the deflated football thing as an issue itself. The media didn't convince me of anything personally. Tom Brady's press conference was the most damning thing that I've seen on the topic.

You can crow about people being convinced by the media but unless you're the ball boy, brady or probably a few others on the patriots staff, you don't know jack either. It's all based on what you've "heard" or read combined with your affinity for the team which doesn't exactly lend credibility to your argument (or your criticism).

 

[NWPatsFan]

So everyone else is wrong and the Patriots are right, even though they have a history under Belichick for accidently putting cameras in the wrong place, purposely trying to confuse the officials, and other pushing of the rules and good sportsmanship.

They cheat, they push the rules hoping to not get caught, they try to gain an edge when they have less talent by using deceptive methods or breaking rules. If your a habitual criminal you think the judge is going to give you the benefit of the doubt when you say that the ball boy did it. In this case you are blaming the league, all the other fans, the officials and the media. Also the pressure in the balls are checked pre game at some point, loss of pressure just in a Patriots game seems a bit coincidental, you would think that every team that plays in a cold climate would have these same issues, and that both teams would have them routinely.

Also those teams that play in warm weather areas should be having over inflated balls based on your arguments as well.

I never said everyone else is wrong. I am saying, fans (usually jealous) of other teams are unable to look at this issue objectively because they have been told by the media that the Patriots are cheaters more than other franchises. The truth is that throughout the league there are violations and accusations but somehow the Patriots are the only ones labeled consistently as cheaters. It is a double standard and it is, in my opinion, a result of the Patriots being so successful for so long. This comment you made about their talent is a perfect example, "they try to gain an edge when they have less talent by using deceptive methods or breaking rules". Teams and their fans have been saying similar things for 14 years, it allows fans and players (Marshall Faulk and Joey Porter for example) to feel better about losing to the Patriots if they can blame it on cheating instead of superior talent and coaching. It happened before spygate and it will continue as long as a 6th round, Hall of Fame QB (Greatest of all-time? Probably) and a "grumpy" coach are associated with the team.

Regarding your point about them cheating and pushing the rules hoping not to get caught. Isn't that what happens every game to every team? Holding penalty...Cheaters!!! Off-sides...Cheaters!!! Players are always trying to get away with breaking the rules to win the game, sometimes they get caught and penalized and other times they get away with it.

I have no idea what story you have been following, but the ball boy story exonerates the Patriots more than condemns them. Just a quick refresher: A league official stole approved balls to sell and then a non-approved ball was given to the Patriots ball boy to replace it. The NFL has stated publicly that the official has been fired and the ball attendant has been exonerated. Also, this was pertaining to kicking balls not offensive balls and NE alerted the refs about the balls...nobody caught them doing anything wrong. And definitely NE was not throwing the ball boy under the bus. The idea that NE is blaming a ball boy is a complete fabrication.

Re Temperature change affecting all Northern climate games during winter. This is without doubt the truth. The ideal gas law is a law, not a suggestion. If there is a temperature drop the ball will lose pressure. The amount of change in temperature directly relates to the amount of loss in PSI. This is not debatable. The only reason why we have never heard of this is because no one has ever cared before. Just this year, the Vikings and I think the Bucs were both told to stop heating the balls up on the sidelines, no media storm, no drama...ya know why? Cause it wasn't the Belichick led Patriots. Also, guess how many times the NFL has ever made it known that they measured all the footballs at halftime of a game (and not just any game but the AFCCG)...ONE Freakin' time. So how are we supposed to know if pressure drop has or hasn't ever happened before? You are not the first person to notice that all northern teams probably are experiencing the same PSI loss...unless they take measures to ensure it doesn't drop. The bottom line is that there are no rules revolving this issue that make sense and instead of admitting that, people want to assume the Patriots cheat. It is convenient and it makes sense, if I wasn't a Pats fan I would probably hate them too. They have been too good for too long. "They Hate Us, 'Cause They Ain't Us"

Also, what are all the "other" times they have pushed the limits of the rules? Are you referring to illegible receiver rules? Didn't the Seahawks use deception themselves with an o-linemean catching a pass on a fake FG...cheaters...they were using deception....How dare they. (SARCASM). Seriously, all the complaints are coming from teams that were beat or have continously been beat by the Patriots. Bunch of crybabies.

 

[chris98251]

Orrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr the truth hurts!!!!!!! No amount of argument is going to take away the reports, the history, the way your Patriots have flipped off sportsmanship in the game.

Oh for future posts, you want to come to a message board of another team and ask for sympathy good luck, you want to call us names I and many others would just soon make you disappear, we have a smack shack for trolling if that's what your desire is, until we get tired of you.

 

[NWPatsFan]

Orrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr the truth hurts!!!!!!! No amount of argument is going to take away the reports, the history, the way your Patriots have flipped off sportsmanship in the game.

Oh for future posts, you want to come to a message board of another team and ask for sympathy good luck, you want to call us names I and many others would just soon make you disappear, we have a smack shack for trolling if that's what your desire is, until we get tired of you.

I don't understand your second paragraph. I have never asked for sympathy, if anything I understand why there is none. I don't think I have called anyone names. I have been very sensitive to this board's membership and have tried to be courteous because I am a guest and appreciate the chance to discuss this issue with fellow NW football fans. I absolutely love the Seahawks and can't wait to pick the game I will attend this year and pull for them against every other team besides the Patriots (old habits are hard to die). If this subject belongs in the Smack Shack so be it. But I have tried to be cordial and on topic.

Re your first paragraph...I don't understand how you can make this argument without examples of "flipping off sportsmanship". The Patriots are the model of sportsmanship and exude classiness. If you have specific examples I would be willing to give my opinion about them.

Your first sentence is true, "truth hurts", that is the point of most of my responses. It is unfair that these reports are put out as if fact without any evidence of wrongdoing. We are in agreement on that point.

 

[chris98251]

Orrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr the truth hurts!!!!!!! No amount of argument is going to take away the reports, the history, the way your Patriots have flipped off sportsmanship in the game.

Oh for future posts, you want to come to a message board of another team and ask for sympathy good luck, you want to call us names I and many others would just soon make you disappear, we have a smack shack for trolling if that's what your desire is, until we get tired of you.

I don't understand your second paragraph. I have never asked for sympathy, if anything I understand why there is none. I don't think I have called anyone names. I have been very sensitive to this board's membership and have tried to be courteous because I am a guest and appreciate the chance to discuss this issue with fellow NW football fans. I absolutely love the Seahawks and can't wait to pick the game I will attend this year and pull for them against every other team besides the Patriots (old habits are hard to die). If this subject belongs in the Smack Shack so be it. But I have tried to be cordial and on topic.

Re your first paragraph...I don't understand how you can make this argument without examples of "flipping off sportsmanship". The Patriots are the model of sportsmanship and exude classiness. If you have specific examples I would be willing to give my opinion about them.

Your first sentence is true, "truth hurts", that is the point of most of my responses. It is unfair that these reports are put out as if fact without any evidence of wrongdoing. We are in agreement on that point.

How dare they. (SARCASM). Seriously, all the complaints are coming from teams that were beat or have continously been beat by the Patriots. Bunch of crybabies.

This may clarify it for you.

 

[rideaducati]

Deflate-gate will go away and WHEN the Patriots plays/fumble stat plummets back to the pack we will all KNOW that they got away with cheating.

 

[SnoCoHawk]

You're way too worried about the whole thing. The Seahawks get called "Seadderall" and memes are made with syringes sticking out of our mascot but it's not something that keeps anyone up at night. Just accept it as part of being a winner and move on.

I'm sure when the report comes out there will be a flurry of new speculation, but it's a stale issue at this point.

 

[NWPatsFan]

You're way too worried about the whole thing. The Seahawks get called "Seadderall" and memes are made with syringes sticking out of our mascot but it's not something that keeps anyone up at night. Just accept it as part of being a winner and move on.

I'm sure when the report comes out there will be a flurry of new speculation, but it's a stale issue at this point.

Good Advice. Appreciate it.