Are the Patriots Still Cheaters?

[vonstout]

Funny that you use the word crybabies. Although I have no problem admitting Brady is one of the best, he also ranks up near the top of QB crybabies list. If anyone breaths on him, he's crying to the refs to throw a flag.

What you don't seem to grasp is the fumble history pre and post 2007 when Brady was one of the primary proponents for allowing each team to prep their own footballs. You say it's because of your great coaching. When someone leaves for another team, do they forget everything? You never answered that. You just throw out observations about Cincy's offense to try to justify why BJGE had zero fumbles in ~500 carries for NE and 5 in 500 carries for Cincy. EVERYONE's turnover numbers have dropped significantly since 2007. Funny how that correlates to the ball prep rule change that your QB lobbied so hard for.

As a fan of a west coast team, I have a general dislike for the East Coast bias in sports. I can't find anything online, but I believe it was Brady who complained about having to play back to back games in SD and Oakland years ago. That's a very unusual occurrence since there aren't many teams in the Pacific time zone, but the league changed the scheduling rules so that wouldn't happen again. It doesn't seem to matter how many times the west coast teams have the early game on the east coast. Seattle had to play Atlanta in the only early game a couple of years ago. There was a late afternoon and night game on Saturday, and standard early and late afternoon games on Sunday. We got the early Sunday game.

You say all the complaining comes from teams you beat. You think it's jealousy. I think it's the general perception that your team bends the rules and that has improved your success rate. When just about anyone who knows anything about football agrees that turnover differential is the biggest factor in a game and you look at the turnover trend since 2007 and factor in that Belichick started coaching NE in 2000, I find it funny that you say he coaches away fumbles. He didn't do a very good job his first 7 seasons. Coincidence? Not IMO.

 

[NWPatsFan]

Funny that you use the word crybabies. Although I have no problem admitting Brady is one of the best, he also ranks up near the top of QB crybabies list. If anyone breaths on him, he's crying to the refs to throw a flag.

What you don't seem to grasp is the fumble history pre and post 2007 when Brady was one of the primary proponents for allowing each team to prep their own footballs. You say it's because of your great coaching. When someone leaves for another team, do they forget everything? You never answered that. You just throw out observations about Cincy's offense to try to justify why BJGE had zero fumbles in ~500 carries for NE and 5 in 500 carries for Cincy. EVERYONE's turnover numbers have dropped significantly since 2007. Funny how that correlates to the ball prep rule change that your QB lobbied so hard for.

As a fan of a west coast team, I have a general dislike for the East Coast bias in sports. I can't find anything online, but I believe it was Brady who complained about having to play back to back games in SD and Oakland years ago. That's a very unusual occurrence since there aren't many teams in the Pacific time zone, but the league changed the scheduling rules so that wouldn't happen again. It doesn't seem to matter how many times the west coast teams have the early game on the east coast. Seattle had to play Atlanta in the only early game a couple of years ago. There was a late afternoon and night game on Saturday, and standard early and late afternoon games on Sunday. We got the early Sunday game.

You say all the complaining comes from teams you beat. You think it's jealousy. I think it's the general perception that your team bends the rules and that has improved your success rate. When just about anyone who knows anything about football agrees that turnover differential is the biggest factor in a game and you look at the turnover trend since 2007 and factor in that Belichick started coaching NE in 2000, I find it funny that you say he coaches away fumbles. He didn't do a very good job his first 7 seasons. Coincidence? Not IMO.

I think we have a classic example of: What came first the chicken or the egg? Did the Patriots haters show up and complain (i.e. nitpick) about the Patriots because they had been beaten by them (which is my opinion based on following the team since the mid-70's). Or did they "cheat"/bend the rules and now people are piling on (which seems to be your theory). In most instances folks would defer to the person who is closer to the situation (i.e. ME), however, in this situation it might be better to not do that because I am very biased, being a fan and all (no different than most fans). And because the Patriots have been so good and beaten so many teams for so long, there are very few fans of other teams that don't despise the Patriots. All I really try to do is offer an opinion that is different than the normally accepted perception.

I did offer a theory about BJGE...he was used sparingly in NE (500 carries in 4 years as opposed to 500 carries in 2 years in CIN) so he was fresher when he got his touches. Also, teams that play NE do not load up the box very often (Brady will pick you apart, whereas Dalton will usually throw a pick) so getting pounded by DL's and LB's more consistently will take it's toll as opposed to most non-LOB secondaries. So that combined with a more disciplined coach (Belichick is head and shoulders above Lewis) is my theory. You may think of it as hogwash, but it is logical and well thought out. Not to mention BJGE had very few if any fumbles in college (memory is a little fuzzy on that one).

Can you link to the turnover study re: NE? I am curious how many of the fumbles were strip sacks, wr's, special teams, rb's, etc. Also, if special teams fumbles went down too, then that could be a point in favor of good coaching since they use kicking balls for punts and kick-offs. Although the sample size is probably too small to draw any real conclusions, interesting thought nonetheless.

 

[Rex]

If Belichick is breathing he is cheating.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

I think we have a classic example of: What came first the chicken or the egg? Did the Patriots haters show up and complain (i.e. nitpick) about the Patriots because they had been beaten by them (which is my opinion based on following the team since the mid-70's). Or did they "cheat"/bend the rules and now people are piling on (which seems to be your theory). In most instances folks would defer to the person who is closer to the situation (i.e. ME), however, in this situation it might be better to not do that because I am very biased, being a fan and all (no different than most fans). And because the Patriots have been so good and beaten so many teams for so long, there are very few fans of other teams that don't despise the Patriots. All I really try to do is offer an opinion that is different than the normally accepted perception.

It's two fold.

1. Contrition. All fans want to hear players, coaches and organizations do when they get caught is be contrite. So when Brady and Belichick both come out after deflategate and act like 10 year olds with down syndrome saying "drrr, we don't know nothin' bout no deflated balls, I can't even tell the difference between two ounces, golly gee."

That insults our intelligence and thus the hate flows freely. It's why baseball fans hate Bonds, Clemens and A-Fraud, yet forgive guys like Pettite. Cause Pettite was contrite.

2. The fans. Because the Boston area was so starved for football and baseball titles for so long, they now don't know how to act. So a lot of you guys have turned into belligerent arrogant A-holes who love nothing more than to rub everyone's nose in your titles cause you had your noses rubbed in it for so long (mainly by NY fans). Now it's your time to enact revenge, and it's annoying as hell for any normal fan outside of the NE to endure.

It's pretty simple, be contrite and gracious in victory and other fans will give your team the respect it deserves. Be a jerkoff A-hole all over the country, and other fans are going to NEVER give you the respect you think you deserve.

 

[seaNOmercy]

Big fat * next to anything they've "accomplished".

Yes, WE lost the game

 

[UK_Seahawk]

If Belichick is breathing he is cheating.

This. There is definitely a culture of break / bend the rules and hope for the best later on.

It's this ingrained culture that runs like a seam throughout the Pats organisation. Witness Butler's trip on Lockette in the Superbowl. Butler's first thought was to cheat and pray that he got away with it.

 

[NWPatsFan]

It's two fold.

1. Contrition. All fans want to hear players, coaches and organizations do when they get caught is be contrite. So when Brady and Belichick both come out after deflategate and act like 10 year olds with down syndrome saying "drrr, we don't know nothin' bout no deflated balls, I can't even tell the difference between two ounces, golly gee."

That insults our intelligence and thus the hate flows freely. It's why baseball fans hate Bonds, Clemens and A-Fraud, yet forgive guys like Pettite. Cause Pettite was contrite.

2. The fans. Because the Boston area was so starved for football and baseball titles for so long, they now don't know how to act. So a lot of you guys have turned into belligerent arrogant A-holes who love nothing more than to rub everyone's nose in your titles cause you had your noses rubbed in it for so long (mainly by NY fans). Now it's your time to enact revenge, and it's annoying as hell for any normal fan outside of the NE to endure.

It's pretty simple, be contrite and gracious in victory and other fans will give your team the respect it deserves. Be a jerkoff A-hole all over the country, and other fans are going to NEVER give you the respect you think you deserve.

Great Post!!

I totally agree with a LARGE PORTION OF THIS POST.

From past experience though (Spygate). Belichick admitted to breaking the camera placement rule that he was accused of and everyone wanted to turn it into a (as people are doing in this thread) "culture of cheating". This time around they did nothing wrong and are convicted by the media based on leaks. Any facts that have come out seem to exonerate the Pats, but the media doesn't focus on that because it doesn't fit the narrative.

2) Boston fans are insufferable (except me)....I stopped attending Red Sox games when the M's were still playing in the KingDome. It is so annoying. Also, when I go to Safeco. I prefer to root for the M's and even though I have lived in the NW for over 20 years I am too loyal to Boston area teams to switch allegiance when they play each other. For the same reason I avoided going to the Patriots/Hawks game a few years ago. TOTAL FULL AGREEMENT WITH THIS POINT OF YOUR POST.

One thing you can't deny, the Patriots especially BB has always complimented the other teams they have played. BB may not act well immediately following a game, but in front of the microphone he always gives credit to the opposition.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

One thing you can't deny, the Patriots especially BB has always complimented the other teams they have played. BB may not act well immediately following a game, but in front of the microphone he always gives credit to the opposition.

True, but how much of Belichick's praise for other teams and players is genuine, and how much of it is in accordance with his philosophy of never giving your opponent bulletin board material.

IMO Belichick is 100% pragmatic when it comes to the media. In his mind he has zero reason to be anything other than disdainful to the media because they serve no pragmatic purpose to winning.

So this disdain comes across as him just being a smarmy ass that doesn't want to be there, and that fuels the hate fans and media have for him. Belichick could learn a few things from Carroll about treating everyone around him with positive respect. In fact I think Carroll brought out the best we've ever seen out of Belichick at the SB press conferences. Carroll was so engaging that it forced Belichick to step it up to match Carroll's excitement and charm.

 

[vonstout]

This time around they did nothing wrong and are convicted by the media based on leaks. Any facts that have come out seem to exonerate the Pats, but the media doesn't focus on that because it doesn't fit the narrative.


I'm not sure where you come up with the facts exonerating them.

1. Brady said he doesn't want anyone to touch the balls after he approves them. Belichick says that their ball prep raises the temp about a degree and that this is done before the balls are checked. Unless Brady is doing the prepping, their stories don't line up.
2. A NE employee took the balls into a bathroom for 90 seconds.
3. Belichick's story about the ball prep by itself alone is enough to show their guilt. They are doctoring the balls before they are inspected to raise the temp. You agreed that you couldn't come up with a good reason why they do that if I recall correctly. The only reason I can think of doing it is to create a larger delta T to get a bigger pressure drop.
4. Add in the fumble history since 2007 and it's a slam dunk in public opinion. Whether they can prove it or not remains to be seen, but as I said before, if their fumble rate goes back up this year, that will be the final nail whether they get punished for it or not.

 

[canfan]

If the report comes out and absolutely exonerates the Patriots of any intentional deflation of the footballs, then I won't consider them to be cheaters in this case. However, if the report comes out and is just plain "We don't know (or can't prove) what happened" or finds that the Patriots exploited some tiny gap in the rules, they're cheaters.

It's annoying when anyone, anywhere (not just football) finds a way to weasel around the spirit of a law or rule just because it's not specific enough or not well-enforced enough. Clearly this rule is in place so that every ball in play has a certain PSI range. Plain as that. Intentionally manipulating the ball resulting in it not being in that PSI range during the game is cheating, whether they literally stuck a needle in it or not.

What about cracked plastic cups? Is that getting around the rules? Am I remembering that correctly? Didn't Sherman get off of his suspension due to a technicality? I remember hearing something about that. Does that fall into the same category?

So you seriously want to hang your argument on the actions of an individual vs an organization? If Schneider or Carroll had provided the cracked cups you would have a valid argument. What you are doing with your example is deflecting and trying to change the basis of the conversation......almost like giving an impromptu (and inaccurate) science lesson at a news conference.

 

[NWPatsFan]

This time around they did nothing wrong and are convicted by the media based on leaks. Any facts that have come out seem to exonerate the Pats, but the media doesn't focus on that because it doesn't fit the narrative.


I'm not sure where you come up with the facts exonerating them.

1. Brady said he doesn't want anyone to touch the balls after he approves them. Belichick says that their ball prep raises the temp about a degree and that this is done before the balls are checked. Unless Brady is doing the prepping, their stories don't line up.
2. A NE employee took the balls into a bathroom for 90 seconds.
3. Belichick's story about the ball prep by itself alone is enough to show their guilt. They are doctoring the balls before they are inspected to raise the temp. You agreed that you couldn't come up with a good reason why they do that if I recall correctly. The only reason I can think of doing it is to create a larger delta T to get a bigger pressure drop.
4. Add in the fumble history since 2007 and it's a slam dunk in public opinion. Whether they can prove it or not remains to be seen, but as I said before, if their fumble rate goes back up this year, that will be the final nail whether they get punished for it or not.

Did you ever find the link to the fumble study you keep referring too? It is hard to have a discussion when the facts are based our biased opinions. I wonder if other teams have shown improvements during that time.

Belichick's story was all of what he had learned during the time between the Monday after the AFCCG until his press conference. He was just trying to get on with preparing for the most important game of the year and folks are expecting him to word everything perfectly and actually care about such a lame excuse for the Colts losing a football game. Have you ever tried telling the difference between a ball that is 2 psi lower...it is not really noticeable. This whole thing is a fabrication and people expect the head coach of a SB team to spend countless days trying to explain it to the media, which didn't really care what he said. They wanted blood, same with Brady...one reporter asked "what about the children?" . What the hell was that about? Stupid really.

Bottom line is the Patriots have not broken any rules based on the facts and everyone has convicted them. If the NFL thought this was a big deal they should have never allowed the Colts to keep the intercepted ball for so long. Every time someone tests a ball to check it, the ball loses about .25 psi. How many times was the ball tested?

There are so many unreported angles to this story, yet the media only focuses on the ones that fit their narrative.

 

[NWPatsFan]

If the report comes out and absolutely exonerates the Patriots of any intentional deflation of the footballs, then I won't consider them to be cheaters in this case. However, if the report comes out and is just plain "We don't know (or can't prove) what happened" or finds that the Patriots exploited some tiny gap in the rules, they're cheaters.

It's annoying when anyone, anywhere (not just football) finds a way to weasel around the spirit of a law or rule just because it's not specific enough or not well-enforced enough. Clearly this rule is in place so that every ball in play has a certain PSI range. Plain as that. Intentionally manipulating the ball resulting in it not being in that PSI range during the game is cheating, whether they literally stuck a needle in it or not.

What about cracked plastic cups? Is that getting around the rules? Am I remembering that correctly? Didn't Sherman get off of his suspension due to a technicality? I remember hearing something about that. Does that fall into the same category?

So you seriously want to hang your argument on the actions of an individual vs an organization? If Schneider or Carroll had provided the cracked cups you would have a valid argument. What you are doing with your example is deflecting and trying to change the basis of the conversation......almost like giving an impromptu (and inaccurate) science lesson at a news conference.

I was not hanging my argument on that point. I was clarifying the person's thoughts to see if it is consistent. Also, how do you know it is an organizational problem? Did a report come out today that I missed? I don't know the exact way things went down, my may main point is that folks are judging the whole franchise without any solid facts to do so. And yet because everyone hates the Pats due to their continued success they are being convicted unfairly. THAT IS ONE OF THE FEW FACTS THAT THERE IS IN THIS SCANDAL.

 

[vonstout]

http://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/bl ... impossible

 

[NWPatsFan]

http://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/blog/2015/the-new-england-patriots-prevention-of-fumbles-is-nearly-impossible

Seems like there are plenty of counter arguments from statistic guys.

Look here: https://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab...e-gateballghazi-related-statistical-analyses/

Like I said before I am not a stats guru, but more intelligent folks than I have some concerns about the methods used. If nothing else it is an interesting read.

 

[vonstout]

I'm not a stats expert, but I have an engineering degree. It doesn't take a lot of common sense to look at the numbers of individual players like Brady, BJGE, Amendola, etc. and see the HUGE improvement from pre and post 2007 or stats with NE vs. other teams. You say everyone is looking at it with a biased perception because of hatred/jealousy of the Pats. I suggest that you are the one who has more of a bias to your team and can't accept that your teams success may not be solely based on coaching and talent.

You said that 2 psi is hardly noticeable. If that's true, why would Brady say he likes under inflated balls? Mark Brunell was given three balls with different pressures and he could tell immediately which one was under/over/within the required pressure. To say Brady couldn't tell the difference is laughable.

 

[SnoCoHawk]

Maybe the 2007 sudden downturn in fumbles (and upturn when players leave the Pats) doesn't have to do with PSI. Maybe the Pats just have a technique that puts a really nice grip on their balls.

:stirthepot: :snack:

(You have to admit that there have been a LOT of players and staff that have come and gone from the Pats in the past 8 seasons, some of whom had to have been disgruntled. That's a heck of a secret for everyone to keep for this long. Did Belechick pay them off? Threaten them? Erase their memories a la Men in Black?)

 

[Rex]

Maybe the 2007 sudden downturn in fumbles (and upturn when players leave the Pats) doesn't have to do with PSI. Maybe the Pats just have a technique that puts a really nice grip on their balls.

:stirthepot: :snack:

(You have to admit that there have been a LOT of players and staff that have come and gone from the Pats in the past 8 seasons, some of whom had to have been disgruntled. That's a heck of a secret for everyone to keep for this long. Did Belechick pay them off? Threaten them? Erase their memories a la Men in Black?)

Then that grip on the ball is forgotten when they go to another team? :roll:

 

[bigtrain21]

(You have to admit that there have been a LOT of players and staff that have come and gone from the Pats in the past 8 seasons, some of whom had to have been disgruntled. That's a heck of a secret for everyone to keep for this long. Did Belechick pay them off? Threaten them? Erase their memories a la Men in Black?)

The players wouldn't have to be told that there was less air in the ball and that it would be easier to hold onto. They would just naturally fumble less due to having a ball that was harder to fumble.

 

[chris98251]

(You have to admit that there have been a LOT of players and staff that have come and gone from the Pats in the past 8 seasons, some of whom had to have been disgruntled. That's a heck of a secret for everyone to keep for this long. Did Belechick pay them off? Threaten them? Erase their memories a la Men in Black?)

The players wouldn't have to be told that there was less air in the ball and that it would be easier to hold onto. They would just naturally fumble less due to having a ball that was harder to fumble.

When a ball has give you can grasp and hold it with one hand easier, a bump doesn't create a slip as much, grab anything that's slightly under inflated.

 

[NWPatsFan]

I'm not a stats expert, but I have an engineering degree. It doesn't take a lot of common sense to look at the numbers of individual players like Brady, BJGE, Amendola, etc. and see the HUGE improvement from pre and post 2007 or stats with NE vs. other teams. You say everyone is looking at it with a biased perception because of hatred/jealousy of the Pats. I suggest that you are the one who has more of a bias to your team and can't accept that your teams success may not be solely based on coaching and talent.

You said that 2 psi is hardly noticeable. If that's true, why would Brady say he likes under inflated balls? Mark Brunell was given three balls with different pressures and he could tell immediately which one was under/over/within the required pressure. To say Brady couldn't tell the difference is laughable.

I read the article you provided. Did you read mine? If you won't even comment on the article I linked to than how can we communicate properly? If you read it you would see that it is not as cut and dry as you like to make it sound. Open your eyes and realize that the Patriots are not even the least likely team to fumble if you count per completed passes, sacks and running plays. This is a more accurate measuring stick than some per play stat that counts incompletions. That article you linked to was a joke.

Can we both agree that Mark Brunnell was a bit emotional about this topic and may have a very slanted view. My God, the guy was crying about a ball that may have been slightly under the recommended psi.

Remember the facts are not even out yet. Nobody knows the measured psi. I read a report that says all the balls were a tick under (probably due to weather) except the ball the Colts had in their possession. If true, the Colts more than likely tested the ball for psi and inadvertently let out some air. Where is the outrage? Oh Yeah, I forgot the Colts suck and no one cares! Hopefully the report will get released and the NFL will show everyone that they are incompetent and they screwed up the whole affair. What a joke this whole scandal is. Tell me this if the shoe was on the other foot wouldn't you be appalled at the way this has been handled. Leaked info leading up to the biggest game of the year. No one recorded the psi. Balls were approved by the refs before the game. The NFL league office was told to look for lower psi before the game and yet no one took measures to check and record the PSI. A league official was a known ball thief and was allowed to be part of the AFCCG. The league decided to change the psi of the balls at halftime and did not inform the Patriots until Monday morning.