Grade the FO thus far addressing offensive line woes

[brimsalabim]

....Tell that to the injured QB and the injured running backs who have to make a living behind this line.

 

[JerHawk81]

Whoever said "incomplete" is obviously correct. But, to give them a grade so far, it's probably a C.

They did some things right. They identified, and threw money and time at the problem. They made a real effort to get Lang and made a fair offer to him. They signed players with previous experience, and with the upside to contribute. They also avoided making, what I feel would be a big mistake long-term by overpaying for an Okung. It's hard to say we are not better off than we were 2 months ago, and they did so without putting us in a long-term cap situation.

They also did some things wrong. I can forgive the idea of targeting a slightly-under-the-radar guy in FA who fits a position of need, and paying a high market value for him without hurting finances long-term - but I'm not sure Joeckel should have been that guy. I would have liked to see a starter brought in at LT, or at least extra bodies who can compete on day 1. Again, I'm not sure Joeckel is that guy. I also think the structure of the contract with Joeckel is flawed... Financially speaking, if he has a poor year, we overpaid. If he has a great year, we get to overpay next year when he hits the market again... I don't mind 1-year contracts... but I mind them on young, high-upside, under performing players at a position of long-term need. But, the biggest problem is that we still aren't very good up front...

 

[scutterhawk]

....Tell that to the injured QB and the injured running backs who have to make a living behind this line.

You obviously have a "FIX THE PROBLEM" in mind that wouldn't put the Seahawks in Cap Hell?

 

[c_hawkbob]

My question to everyone who is poo pooing on what we have so far to grade is, who did you want us to give up to get better results? We have the done the best we could with what is out there in my opinion.

They won't agree with you.

"They should have offered TJ Lang 20 million a year, just DO WHAT IT TAKES THE FIX THE O-LIIIIIIIIIIINE"

Don't be ridiculous. If we'd gotten Lang I'd have given us a B instead of a C- but we didn't. We tried, and I am made to understand that we made at least as good an offer as he got to go play for his home town team.

So the effort was there but we're not grading effort are we? the fact is the guys we did get don't rate a better grade than a C- (and I actually think that is being generous).

I fully realize that the offseason isn't over, which is why I called for an "I- incomplete" option.

You don't fail at your first attempt to do something and then ask "well how am I doing so far though" unless you're a little kid looking for approval and encouragement to keep at it.

I'm willing to wait to see how the rest off the offseason and the draft goes, but don't ask me for a pat on the head already.

 

[AgentDib]

There are a couple of advantages to ranting about the offensive line. First, it shows that you are a Knowledgeable sort of fan who understands that games are won in the trenches and everything else is fluff for the masses who don't know any better. Second, pass protection is expected to never fail and thus you have instant confirmation of your biases any time somebody from the opposing team manages to create pressure.

Additionally, finding things to criticize about a good team demonstrates that you have Very High Standards. This helps set you apart from lesser fans who don't understand that a great team would win the Superbowl every single year. Salary cap constraints, injuries, and randomness are just excuses used by fans of teams who are not great.

Luckily, the Seahawks are a good team with an offensive line that under performed last year so there is low hanging fruit on both accounts for a Knowledgeable fan with Very High Standards.

 

[scutterhawk]

My question to everyone who is poo pooing on what we have so far to grade is, who did you want us to give up to get better results? We have the done the best we could with what is out there in my opinion.

They won't agree with you.

"They should have offered TJ Lang 20 million a year, just DO WHAT IT TAKES THE FIX THE O-LIIIIIIIIIIINE"

To be completely fair, I don't think the frustration is totally unjustified.

I mean, it's easy to try and frame it in just this offseason's efforts. But in reality, this volcano of frustration has been swelling over time for more than a half a decade now. And probably originated with the original sin of allowing Hutchinson to leave. It's a sum of failures that all seem to stack one upon another.

The local fans who are generally angry with the results at this point and time have been so for many seasons. And at this point it's just a chronic, never ending source of pain. While I agree, if you look at the case by case in each year -- it's relatively easy to see how and why this OL is the way it is. When I get down the the nuts and bolts of it -- I can't find many alternative moves that I would have rather we had made.

That doesn't lessen the frustration though. It's diffuse. It's misdirected. And anymore, I just recognize this discontent as generic venting. Because I've offered up to debate the subject. Seemingly every year. But nobody wants to go down the road and put moves/names they would have preferred. And really examine what else we lost had we gone that route. It's just far easier to just blindly vent frustration.

To me, it's definitely a grass is greener kind of deal.

What isn't being considered for discussion by many in here, is player to scheme fit.
It's already been argued that there's a lot more Defensive "Party Crashers" to be Drafted nowadays than well trained Offensive Linemen.... It's lopsided as hell.
Pete Carroll brought Tom Cable in because of his Zone Blocking acumen, and because there were fewer polished players to be found, he had to develop players to better fit his ZB Scheme.
None of US in here can say for certain, whether or not, some of the players that we're bringing in, are "A HIT, or, "A MISS".
It all comes down to "We The Fans" Second Guessing Tom Cable's OPINION.
He did field a couple of Super Bowl worthy O-Lines...Yes he did have Marshawn Lynch to help his cause, but now without "THE BEAST", he has to start back at square one.....Will Eddy Lacey reinvigorate things?, None Of Us Can Know For Certain....Tis neither Positive nor negative speculations.

 

[Seymour]

.....It all comes down to "We The Fans" Second Guessing Tom Cable's OPINION.
He did field a couple of Super Bowl worthy O-Lines...Yes he did have Marshawn Lynch to help his cause, but now without "THE BEAST", he has to start back at square one.....Will Eddy Lacey reinvigorate things?, None Of Us Can Know For Certain....Tis neither Positive nor negative speculations.

True. Cable did manage to take the highest paid oline in the NFL in 2013 to his career best 20th ranked line. :2thumbs:

So he does have that going for the other team.

 

[Jville]

Run Blocking rankings for the offensive line down thru the Cable years from Football Outsiders.

2011 ..... 19th
2012 ..... 4th
2013 ...... 9th
2014 ...... 4th
2015 ...... 4th
2016 ...... 26th

 

[jammerhawk]

Even a regression to the median result would show a significant improvement. Time will tell if the addition of either Joeckel or Aboushi and whoever else get added before the season starts will make a material difference or if the experience abtained by the last season's group will pay some positive dividends.

Many here will realize and accept if the run game is significantly improved then the play action fakes will markedly improve and the pass pro for Wilson will improve by default. The passing lanes for Wilson will open some if the opponents are required to scheme to stop a capable run game, which was missing last season.

Last season the resources devoted to the OLine were pitiful and the results obtained easily consistent.

 

[Chapow]

There are a couple of advantages to ranting about the offensive line. First, it shows that you are a Knowledgeable sort of fan who understands that games are won in the trenches and everything else is fluff for the masses who don't know any better. Second, pass protection is expected to never fail and thus you have instant confirmation of your biases any time somebody from the opposing team manages to create pressure.

Additionally, finding things to criticize about a good team demonstrates that you have Very High Standards. This helps set you apart from lesser fans who don't understand that a great team would win the Superbowl every single year. Salary cap constraints, injuries, and randomness are just excuses used by fans of teams who are not great.

Luckily, the Seahawks are a good team with an offensive line that under performed last year so there is low hanging fruit on both accounts for a Knowledgeable fan with Very High Standards.

Nicely done. :2thumbs:

 

[Seymour]

Run Blocking rankings for the offensive line down thru the Cable years from Football Outsiders.

2011 ..... 19th
2012 ..... 4th
2013 ...... 9th
2014 ...... 4th
2015 ...... 4th
2016 ...... 26th

True. And that is why Pete picked up Cable to begin with, but as I've posted, this team is in transition when you look at the personnel and the loss of Lynch. Also, unfortunately that is less than half the story, and our most valued and costly weapons are throwing the ball. It also does nothing to protect our largest investment on the team in RW which needs to be a priority. To that question we have 100% pure incompetence looking at the Cable years.

Seahawks offensive line pass protection--same source (FO)

2011--24th
2012--20th
2013--32nd (dead last)
2014--24th
2015--30th
2016--25th

Also...
PFF actually has them generally worse overall during these same years, and they are a NFL trusted source for data / stats.

 

[jammerhawk]

The team went into last season believing they could transition from Lynch with a healthy Rawls, Prosise, Collins, and the others. Neither Rawls nor Prosise were healthy so the transition didn't happen. Collins was a slow learner but the only guy who stayed healthy all season. The transition never happened and the OLine was woeful in pass pro, It sure didn't help that Wilson was hobbled all season either. A somewhat perfect storm happened as a result.

The team couldn't run effectively or prevent Wilson from almost instant duress as the team was constantly behind schedule in terms of down and distance due to the inadequate run game. The simple improvements of better health with the RBs and Wilson combined with even mibnor OLine improvement could provide significantly improved results. However, time will tell.

 

[Tical21]

My question to everyone who is poo pooing on what we have so far to grade is, who did you want us to give up to get better results? We have the done the best we could with what is out there in my opinion.

They won't agree with you.

"They should have offered TJ Lang 20 million a year, just DO WHAT IT TAKES THE FIX THE O-LIIIIIIIIIIINE"

To be completely fair, I don't think the frustration is totally unjustified.

I mean, it's easy to try and frame it in just this offseason's efforts. But in reality, this volcano of frustration has been swelling over time for more than a half a decade now. And probably originated with the original sin of allowing Hutchinson to leave. It's a sum of failures that all seem to stack one upon another.

The local fans who are generally angry with the results at this point and time have been so for many seasons. And at this point it's just a chronic, never ending source of pain. While I agree, if you look at the case by case in each year -- it's relatively easy to see how and why this OL is the way it is. When I get down the the nuts and bolts of it -- I can't find many alternative moves that I would have rather we had made.

That doesn't lessen the frustration though. It's diffuse. It's misdirected. And anymore, I just recognize this discontent as generic venting. Because I've offered up to debate the subject. Seemingly every year. But nobody wants to go down the road and put moves/names they would have preferred. And really examine what else we lost had we gone that route. It's just far easier to just blindly vent frustration.

To me, it's definitely a grass is greener kind of deal.

Venting I can handle.

Calling an 11-6-1 season a "decline", though, borders on intellectual dishonesty and people rushing to try to back up their venting with "facts". I don't think it works.

It's probably just time for me to expand my ignore list again.

They declined pretty significantly in literally almost every measurable metric, as well as the eyeball test, and had locker room issues we have never seen the likes of. I'm not sure the people that noticed a decline are the ones bordering on intellectual dishonesty here.

 

[MontanaHawk05]

They declined pretty significantly in literally almost every measurable metric, as well as the eyeball test, and had locker room issues we have never seen the likes of. I'm not sure the people that noticed a decline are the ones bordering on intellectual dishonesty here.

11-6-1.

And as Attyla mentioned, getting Lang pretty much required getting rid of Earl, Kam, or Jimmy. The first two would leave the team right back where they were. I know Jimmy is popular to hate on, but protecting Wilson at the expense of a good target (20% of the team's receptions, just like his days in New Orleans) would probably be a wash, too.

It just boils down to the fact that money is not infinite. The team has to make concessions somewhere.

 

[Jville]

Run Blocking rankings for the offensive line down thru the Cable years from Football Outsiders.

2011 ..... 19th
2012 ..... 4th
2013 ...... 9th
2014 ...... 4th
2015 ...... 4th
2016 ...... 26th

True. And that is why Pete picked up Cable to begin with, but as I've posted, this team is in transition when you look at the personnel and the loss of Lynch. Also, unfortunately that is less than half the story, and our most valued and costly weapons are throwing the ball. It also does nothing to protect our largest investment on the team in RW which needs to be a priority. To that question we have 100% pure incompetence looking at the Cable years.

Seahawks offensive line pass protection--same source (FO)

2011--24th
2012--20th
2013--32nd (dead last)
2014--24th
2015--30th
2016--25th

Also...
PFF actually has them generally worse overall during these same years, and they are a NFL trusted source for data / stats.

I understand what your looking for ..... but Pete will reestablish his preferred running style as his priority. For Carroll, play action passing doesn't work without that physical running game. Influence blocks do not work without a respect for a physical running game. When disruptive defenders don't respect and disregard influence movement, they can make offensive linemen look really bad and fool both fans and outside graders in the process. The decision to go back to the future addresses that problem and has all ready been made.

The FO pass rankings are nothing more than a simple ranking of sack rates. That is the extent of it. No distinguish is made between a defensive win and a quarterback creating a sack via submitting in place or running out of bounds behind the line of scrimmage. Published sack stats don't distinction between a quick slant and the theater of extended improvisation. They are just sack rates. There remains a lack of statistical quality when it comes to attempts to published pass blocking comparisons. Little has changed in this regard since the days of Jim Zorn whose offensive lines were also badly maligned during Zorn's own style of extended improvisation.

With regards to trusted sources, disclosure of how data is collected and counted defines it's usefulness. F.O. is forthcoming about disclosure and reasonably careful about limiting what claims can be made. That is not something PFF and NFL stats are as disciplined about.

Culturally, statistical claims designed to reinforce a sponsor's narrative have become epidemic. The NFL has a recent example with it's vested interest in wanting outsiders to believe that their rules to protect the quarterback are reducing quarterback injuries. Currently ..... FO has an interesting example and inquiry here >>> [urltargetblank]http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2017/fact-check-qb-injury-numbers[/urltargetblank] regarding a NFL claim of reduced QB injury numbers. It asks where and how the NFL and PFF arrived at their numbers. It addresses unanswered disclosures. Vested interests are not impartial. And, when they are paying the way, they skew the results. My point is .... be selective about where you place your trust.

 

[Seymour]

Good god, I'm not going to get into debating stat creds thanx. They follow Cable everywhere, his QB's get pressured and sacked even in Oakland and everyone knows this. Turn a game on and throw the stats out the window then. Cable and Bevell both have a job for 2 reasons. 1) Russell Wilson 2) Marshawn Lynch. Now the warts show when either is less than 100% or gone in Lynch's case.

Anyway, believe as you will.

 

[MontanaHawk05]

Good god, I'm not going to get into debating stat creds thanx. They follow Cable everywhere, his QB's get pressured and sacked even in Oakland and everyone knows this. Turn a game on and throw the stats out the window then. Cable and Bevell both have a job for 2 reasons. 1) Russell Wilson 2) Marshawn Lynch. Now the warts show when either is less than 100% or gone in Lynch's case.

Anyway, believe as you will.

I'm pretty sure Josh McDaniels still has a job because of Tom Brady, too.

 

[original poster]

I don't believe for a second Joeckel is our planned long term LT. PC himself said Fant would benefit taking a year on the bench behind a starter to learn and grow, I'd bet a lot of money he is our plan A future LT for 2018 onwards, even if he doesn't get to where the FO want him to be, we can either rinse and repeat or have a stab at resigning Joeckel.

A lot of people aren't taking into consideration the fact that our guys will be another year experienced, rookies become second year players which, historically, is a big jump in this league. We have a new found leader in Justin Britt (did not think I'd ever say that...), you can guarantee he is pushing these guys this off season.

I can very easily see a middle of the pack o-line this upcoming season, if not better. As with most cases, it all boils down to injuries. Exciting times ahead!

 

[Tical21]

I don't believe for a second Joeckel is our planned long term LT. PC himself said Fant would benefit taking a year on the bench behind a starter to learn and grow, I'd bet a lot of money he is our plan A future LT for 2018 onwards, even if he doesn't get to where the FO want him to be, we can either rinse and repeat or have a stab at resigning Joeckel.

A lot of people aren't taking into consideration the fact that our guys will be another year experienced, rookies become second year players which, historically, is a big jump in this league. We have a new found leader in Justin Britt (did not think I'd ever say that...), you can guarantee he is pushing these guys this off season.

I can very easily see a middle of the pack o-line this upcoming season, if not better. As with most cases, it all boils down to injuries. Exciting times ahead!

I would lay dough on the Browns to win the Super Bowl before I would bet this group could be the #15 line in 2017.

 

[original poster]

I don't believe for a second Joeckel is our planned long term LT. PC himself said Fant would benefit taking a year on the bench behind a starter to learn and grow, I'd bet a lot of money he is our plan A future LT for 2018 onwards, even if he doesn't get to where the FO want him to be, we can either rinse and repeat or have a stab at resigning Joeckel.

A lot of people aren't taking into consideration the fact that our guys will be another year experienced, rookies become second year players which, historically, is a big jump in this league. We have a new found leader in Justin Britt (did not think I'd ever say that...), you can guarantee he is pushing these guys this off season.

I can very easily see a middle of the pack o-line this upcoming season, if not better. As with most cases, it all boils down to injuries. Exciting times ahead!

I would lay dough on the Browns to win the Super Bowl before I would bet this group could be the #15 line in 2017.

Good for you :roll: